Standards slipping?

Discussion in 'The Intelligence Cell' started by Sparky6373, Feb 12, 2008.

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  1. Just recieved an email talking of how standards are slipping in Op Theatres - Bastion, Kandahar etc. Mixed dress, smoking and not shaving etc - all the way from CGS apparently. Is this the truth or just people in the rear not understanding the difficulties of life in Afgha/Iraq.
  2. WWWWWWWWWWWWwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh
  3. Not having been involved in this current war I do not claim special knowledge.

    However, standards are important and I suspect that "those in the rear" do have a very good idea.

    Things like not shaving should have a clear operational justification, i.e. shortage of water, or possibly working with locals for whom the lack of facial hair is a sensitive matter. COs and formation commanders can issue local rules with respect to these subjects.

    The same can be applied to other matters:

    Why is it necessary to wear mixed dress?
    Why is it necessary to stand around smoking in situations where it would not normally be acceptable?
    Of course we could identify an few dozen more such topics

    So I am sure those in the rear do have a very good idea, and are very aware of the variety of conditions and difficulties of those up the front. I am also sure that they recognise that on operations such matters tend to be deemed less important and a little relaxation can be a good thing. However, they also have to ensure that any such a relaxation of standards in the "frontline" does not become a total abandonment of standards all round. I can imagine the comments from the "frontliners" when they start to see REMFs (I hate that Americanism) unshaved and looking like shit for no operational reason.

    Next you will suggesting the practice of wearing "American gloves" is now acceptable!
  4. oldbaldy

    oldbaldy LE Moderator Good Egg (charities)
    1. Battlefield Tours

    When you shave in the desert you are using water that could be used to keep you alive.
    It's a no brainer really & hardly new have a look at SAS in WW2 or LRDG or Chindits.

    edit to add, or me in the 70s areas not far from current actions.
  5. on telic it was like being back at home sometimes... no mixed dress, issue desert shorts only allowed to be worn after 5:30 pm (even if you were stood down) , £1000 fines for smoking in a non smoking area, agai 67 if you didnt shave.

    we were on an op in the desert 1 night and were told to take razors with us to shave in the morning lol...

    we nicknamed it ITC COB, coz thats what it felt like at times... i wouldnt say the "standards were slipping" within most units at all.
  6. Iknow probably a bit bone but evn on watching the Anglians in Afghan last night i was surprised at some of dress etc, but i did think they were in a s***hole so i guess other things more improtant - like not getting shot!

    That said i know others will contend standrads should be kept so that discipline is not compromised - tough one
  7. standards should be kept. it takes just as long to put on/chage into issued clothes as it does non-issue. it takes 30 seconds to have a sufficient shave.
  8. It surprizes me that any 'standards' remain in the Army at all after the way it has been f*cked about by the politicians in the last ten and a half years.
  9. its probably more to do with water, water to shave water to clean clothes

    its not ideal mixing clothes but hey to survive you need to adapt
  10. The mixed dress issue could just as easily be tied in with the Geneva Convention. Once out of uniform, you lose your standing as a legitimate combatant.

    Though how this works in an undeclared war, I'm not too sure.
  11. Not a difficult one at all. Its up to the Commander on the ground. If he decides that The locals respect a bit of face fungus, then he can relax the shaving rules, as for the mixed dress, they were dressed like that only in their own admin areas during the rare bits of free time they seemed to have (All wearing correct kit on patrol)

    To bring it into perspective, I was comparing desert stories and pics with my grandad, mine Telic 4, his Suez 1953.
    All of his photos of him and his mates involved him spending most of his working day in a pair of shorts and no shirt, a home made bar in his nissan hut and except on duty, lots of sport to be played and bottle of beer in hand.
    My experience of Operations in a desert enviroment was, walking around areas without headress was a big no no in the Apod, kit was also ironed despite spending the whole day, every day sweating my nads off in body armour,(also add helmet, CEFO and a Snatch with an asthmatic with an ice cube in his gob for air con) and Grandad did mention that he thought some of that was going a bit far and it wasnt that bad in his day, Considering Ismillaya was one of the largest British Garrisons ever, the bullsh1t factor was quite low compared with today.

    However I will admit to sporting massive sidies though.
  12. Thought I'd bring this across from the Ross Kemp in Afg Forum where I posted it this morning. Same argument me thinks.

    Am I just being old fashioned or was last nights programme spoiled by the O-Gp scene?

    Overall i thought the Regiment came across extremely well at a very difficult time in their tour. They were proud and professional in the way they conducted their Post incident interviews and rightly refused to condem the Americans.

    What let them down was the "Ally" approach to the orders process. Since when has it been acceptable to attend an Orders group for a difficult and dangerous mission in shorts and flowery shirts? The O-Gp was poorly delivered, even allowing for the filming, and had scenes of Officers and NCOs lounging about and paying little attention to the proceedings. A recent missive from the Acadamy Seargent Major and Infantry RSM refferred to exactly this point in relation to CinC's recent Afg visit.

    Part of the hearts and mind battle in a culture like AFG that respects military ethos and standards can be won by looking the part. I am not advocating a return to Service Dress and Scarlet Jackets but a maintenance of basic military dress codes and formal process does help instill esprit de corps and a professional mindset.

    I expect to be berated for these comments but as a member of the "front line" club I am entitled to make them!!
  13. I don't know about Nucs but on Diesel Boats [Subs], shite rig was the order of the day when at sea and showers were a rarity. Same as on Ops in the sand, doing the job is the most important thing. I'm sure that once back from Ops then normal discipline is enforced.
    Those at the front know best and it's not for REMF's to interfere.
  14. I would'nt mind bringing back some old fashioned stuff back, my suggestion would be to get rid of the smoking ban and we could all smoke pipes during briefings.
  15. How about bringing back red tunics with gleaming white crossbelts and advancing towards the enemy in extended line. 8O