Stalingrad 1942

B There was no front in the West between June 1941 and June 1944, apart of course the Atlantic battle And the NA campaigns. So where do you get this notional E/W concept from.
Ahem I think you mean September 1943
 
But my point is that wasn’t decided and it’s generalist and inaccurate. There was point where had the Russians pushed in the south they had the possibility of getting to the French border.
Of course defeat of the USSR was possible at some stages but it depended on the right strategy and importantly it depended on the elimination of the Stalin.

My other point is that it was precisely not the case that Germans could foretell the future. You are the one talking of forgone conclusions. There was no front in the West between June 1941 and June 1944, apart of course the Atlantic battle And the NA campaigns. So where do you get this notional E/W concept from.
I would like to recall the initial question - Why Russian women much more actively participated in combat operations during WW2 than German ones?
I proposed my explanation. Apparently you disagree with it. But what is your explanation?
 
Letters from the front by German officers and soldiers from as early as July '41 make it clear a lot of the Werhmacht knew they had bitten off more they could chew .
One has only got to look at the vastness of the the Soviet Union , the size of it's population and the will of the people , reinforced when necessary by the iron discipline imposed by the Communist apparatus , to realize it was an impossible task .
The deeper into Russia the Germans got , the worse the logistic problem was ,coupled with greater numbers of partisans .
The icing on the cake were the Einsatzgruppen and other representatives of the Nazi state that it made it quite clear they were there to enslave , not liberate . People who would have sided with them were treated no differently to captured Red Army soldiers , apart from at Army level where Hiwis were recruited and in some cases entire corps of disaffected Cossacks were raised .
Had the Germans made it clear from the start they were there to liberate people from the communist yoke , and re established small farms and agrarian capitalism , they might have stood some chance .
1 ) That comment alone would have seen you shot between 1917 -1989 .......

2 ) I know the rest of the Second World War doesn't feature in your history books , but go tell that to the thousands of victims of RAF / USAAF bombing raids and the thousands that were starved as prisoners and forced labour in the immediate aftermath of surrender in May 1945 . Both the Americans and the French tore up the Geneva convention the minute the Germans capitulated .
To discuss something it is needed to compare opinions, points of view.
1. No doubt that at some point the majority of Germans realised that WW2 will be lost. When did it happen? I believe it didn't happen at one day. The process lasted during 1944 and after landing of UK/US troops in France the majority of the Germans abandoned any hope for victory.
2. Could the Soviet union lose the war? I believe that it was quite possible. And what do you think?
3. Did the Germans think that UK/US plan to exterminate, annihilate German nation? I reckon that no.
4. Did the Germans think that the Russians would treat them as the Germans treated the Russians? Yes, they feared it.
 
I would like to recall the initial question - Why Russian women much more actively participated in combat operations during WW2 than German ones?
I proposed my explanation. Apparently you disagree with it. But what is your explanation?
I think I’ve explained it
Will someone please take that shovel away from him.
 

Fang_Farrier

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
July 1943 if counting Sicily
I didn't count Sicily as its not European main land, so cinsidered it as wrapping up the African front but your points valid and theres no reason it cant be seen as the start of the italian front
 
I didn't count Sicily as its not European main land, so cinsidered it as wrapping up the African front but your points valid and theres no reason it cant be seen as the start of the italian front
Point is it concentrated in taking the Italians out of the war and raising the pressure on the Germans it does not justifyKGBs point about the mentality in Germany or the issues of the east west Fronts. There was no fundamental difference in Western Germany and the east that I have been able to determine. One either kept one’s head down or lost it. Isn’t it funny that there has never been in the least a requirement for a Russian resistance to Stalin.
 

diverman

LE
Book Reviewer
One either kept one’s head down or lost it. Isn’t it funny that there has never been in the least a requirement for a Russian resistance to Stalin.
Both Stalin and Hitler had the same systems of repression, depending where you where you were either invited to Prinz Albrechtstrasse 8 or the Lubyanka. The outcome was generally the same.
 
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Both Stalin and Hitler had the same systems of repression, depending where you where you were either invited to Prinz Albrechtstrasse 8 or the Lubyanka. The outcome was generally the same.
Oh that’s beyond doubt. The issue here is that the USSR never “officially” admitted it had an unofficial opposition during communist days.
 
View attachment 486961
It is from famous (in Russia) film (1972). It is not about Stalingrad. Young anti-aircraft female gunners defend railway station from German bombing raids in Karelia.

The lass that you see on the front is a well known actress - Yelena Drapeko
She is now an MP form the Communist party
View attachment 486963

The film became extremely popular in many countries, in China for example. There is Chinese version of "Dawns Here are Quiet" Opera

View attachment 486964
You guys certainly make awesome WW2 movies. I watched Liberation (Освобождениеa) a few years ago and it was a couple of hours long. It's interesting that the Soviets were still ahead of the West in their portrayal of women in war films, but in society they were and still are more traditional. I always quite liked the nurse, Zoia.



Unfortunately there's not that many good pics of her.
 
My other point is that it was precisely not the case that Germans could foretell the future. You are the one talking of forgone conclusions. There was no front in the West between June 1941 and June 1944, apart of course the Atlantic battle And the NA campaigns. So where do you get this notional E/W concept from.
Pssst, September 1943, Italy . . .
 
Why Russian women much more actively participated in combat operations during WW2 than German ones?
The reason was that the Soviets had lost such a huge amount of trained manpower in 1941 during the big German encirclements such as the Ulman pocket that they had no choice. For instance Soviet female tank crews were all ladies who had worked in the tank production factories building and testing the tanks that they subsequently operated.

Soviet female pilots had previously learnt to fly in the civilian communist flying clubs established before the war. It was the same for the female snipers, most had learnt their skills at local shooting clubs. One of the principals of the Bolshevik revolution in 1917 was total equility for women (although this didn't always work in practice)

In other words it pained the Soviet leadership to throw women into combat, but they simply had no choice. At the end of WW2 nearly all the females were discharged. During the Cold war there were only about 10,000 women in the Soviet Armed Forces, nearly all medical staff. This changed in the 90s when the Russian Army was so short of numbers as draftees were dodging military service that the numbers were made up by recruiting females, the numbers rising dramaticly to over 100,000.
 

napier

LE
Moderator
Kit Reviewer
View attachment 486961
It is from famous (in Russia) film (1972). It is not about Stalingrad. Young anti-aircraft female gunners defend railway station from German bombing raids in Karelia.

The lass that you see on the front is a well known actress - Yelena Drapeko
She is now an MP form the Communist party
View attachment 486963

The film became extremely popular in many countries, in China for example. There is Chinese version of "Dawns Here are Quiet" Opera

View attachment 486964
linky to modern TV version
 

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