Stalingrad 1942

Pteranadon

LE
Book Reviewer

Zaphod

Crow
A good read if you can find a copy is Island of Fire by Jason D Mark.
I have a few of his other books but have never snagged this one.
 

diverman

LE
Book Reviewer
@par avion I did read somewhere that if the Germans had taken Moscow, aside from the blow to Russian morale especially if Stalin had legged it, it was also a sizeable transport hub. So it may have had a long term effect on the Russian war effort.

The mass evacuation of Russian industry out of German range was a major factor in defeating the Germans. If the Luftwaffe had developed a long range bomber it might have been different but Walter Wever* (I've just looked him up) potentially a German Bomber Harris died before that idea could be brought to fruition. Again could have affected the war although it would probably just have delayed the inevitable defeat.

*Walther Wever (general) - Wikipedia
I think the German High Command never saw the 'need' for a strategic bomber force as they had a tactical mind set and that they could literally march if neccesary to any country they wanted to take over. That mindset was literally that the Luftwaffe, was just an arm of the army and its objectives, nothing more. The RAF had a strategic as well as a tactical outlook and separated both to a great extent.

They lauded quantity as well as qualty, the latter they could do but not the former as their raw material resources were far below the Allies even from the start of WW2.
 
Posting this here. It is thread drift (well, thread off course) but genuinely amazing information.
We probably need a Mark Felton thread somewhere tbh.
 
I made the remark that attracted your attention in the context of the question: why Russian women did participate in combat operations much more actively than German ones?
I proposed an explanation and apparently you either didn't understand it or disagree with it.
Taking into account the nature of Nazi Germany, its ideology the Russians understood that the defeat means annihilation of Russian people. Russian women understood it pretty well. So there were so many volunteers because there was a question about the very existence of Russian nation.
On the initial stages the Germans didn't need women on the front line. In 1944 after offensive operations of the Red army and after opening of the 2d front in France many Germans began to regard defeat as something quite possible. But what did it mean for the Germans at least for those who lived in Western part of Germany? As maximum it meant occupation by US/UK/French forces that would be a tragedy but not absolute catastrophe. In other words for Germany WW2 was just a war - one of many ones and defeat in it would not meant annihilation of German nation. So for this reason there were much less female volunteers to fight on the front line.
Frankly you are so wrong. The German Larger proportion of the populace realised the war was lost the moment Barbarossa was announced. Where do you get this concept of Western Germany? You’r transposing the West and East German states from the fifties. No one was under any illusions except the party faithful who kept on message. Modern thinking on the matter is coloured by post war thought. The fact that in West Germany-it didn’t turn into catastrophe Couldn’t be foreseen. Those decisions hadn’t been made. The concept that women were needed for breeding, which incidentally One can’t do with dead women, but women could release men for the front, which was not dissimilar to here.

That German forces preferred to surrender to Western forces was to do with Survival chances And even that was a risk, given post surrender allied policy was another matter. Frankly both sides were in the same boat, both leaderships were inherrently unstable and populations needed to watch their mouths. One was as much at risk from one’s own side as the other.
 
Frankly you are so wrong. The German Larger proportion of the populace realised the war was lost the moment Barbarossa was announced.
Really? Do you really believe that most of Germans had the Time machine or were gifted foretellers? I suppose that mainly the Germans followed Hitler, believed in the victory. Defeat of the Soviet union was quite possible and didn't happen mainly because huge efforts of the people and women contributed to it a lot.
Where do you get this concept of Western Germany? You’r transposing the West and East German states from the fifties.
I wrote about just Western part of Germany without any connection to 2 German states that emerged later. The Germans in the Western part of Germany - in Rein valley, in Saar, Pfaltz, Schwartzwald expected that in the case of defeat they would be occupied by US/UK/French forces that would not mean annihilation of the Germans as a nation.
 
Really? Do you really believe that most of Germans had the Time machine or were gifted foretellers? I suppose that mainly the Germans followed Hitler, believed in the victory. Defeat of the Soviet union was quite possible and didn't happen mainly because huge efforts of the people and women contributed to it a lot.

I wrote about just Western part of Germany without any connection to 2 German states that emerged later. The Germans in the Western part of Germany - in Rein valley, in Saar, Pfaltz, Schwartzwald expected that in the case of defeat they would be occupied by US/UK/French forces that would not mean annihilation of the Germans as a nation.
But my point is that wasn’t decided and it’s generalist and inaccurate. There was point where had the Russians pushed in the south they had the possibility of getting to the French border.
Of course defeat of the USSR was possible at some stages but it depended on the right strategy and importantly it depended on the elimination of the Stalin.

My other point is that it was precisely not the case that Germans could foretell the future. You are the one talking of forgone conclusions. There was no front in the West between June 1941 and June 1944, apart of course the Atlantic battle And the NA campaigns. So where do you get this notional E/W concept from.
 
Initially I wanted to think that this comment was due to your unfamiliarity with the subtleties of the English language. But the more I read it, the more I thought you really are saying that for the German people during the War, it really had no meaning to them. I don't understand how anyone who claims to have a knowledge of the War can make this statement. The War was as important to the German population as it was to the Russian. They knew a Russian victory would be the end of Germany, just as the Russian population felt.

You don't do yourself any favours when you put forth such statements when trying to make a point.

Cheers,
Dan.
He's been taught that since childhood , that's why .
 

Slime

LE
Initially I wanted to think that this comment was due to your unfamiliarity with the subtleties of the English language. But the more I read it, the more I thought you really are saying that for the German people during the War, it really had no meaning to them. I don't understand how anyone who claims to have a knowledge of the War can make this statement. The War was as important to the German population as it was to the Russian. They knew a Russian victory would be the end of Germany, just as the Russian population felt.

You don't do yourself any favours when you put forth such statements when trying to make a point.

Cheers,
Dan.
Try to avoid much of his posting then, it’s utter tripe in some threads.
This is almost ‘normal’ compared to his ideas the Skripals were held in a cellar with rats in, then murdered by the UK (then somehow alive again) and that Julia Skripal had a gun pointed at her head while she made her public statement.
His claims that Salisbury hospital was sealed off from the public, and that MI5 were answering calls to the hospital were equally sensible.
 
Really? Do you really believe that most of Germans had the Time machine or were gifted foretellers? I suppose that mainly the Germans followed Hitler, believed in the victory. Defeat of the Soviet union was quite possible and didn't happen mainly because huge efforts of the people and women contributed to it a lot.

I wrote about just Western part of Germany without any connection to 2 German states that emerged later. The Germans in the Western part of Germany - in Rein valley, in Saar, Pfaltz, Schwartzwald expected that in the case of defeat they would be occupied by US/UK/French forces that would not mean annihilation of the Germans as a nation.
Letters from the front by German officers and soldiers from as early as July '41 make it clear a lot of the Werhmacht knew they had bitten off more they could chew .
One has only got to look at the vastness of the the Soviet Union , the size of it's population and the will of the people , reinforced when necessary by the iron discipline imposed by the Communist apparatus , to realize it was an impossible task .
The deeper into Russia the Germans got , the worse the logistic problem was ,coupled with greater numbers of partisans .
The icing on the cake were the Einsatzgruppen and other representatives of the Nazi state that it made it quite clear they were there to enslave , not liberate . People who would have sided with them were treated no differently to captured Red Army soldiers , apart from at Army level where Hiwis were recruited and in some cases entire corps of disaffected Cossacks were raised .
Had the Germans made it clear from the start they were there to liberate people from the communist yoke , and re established small farms and agrarian capitalism , they might have stood some chance .
 
Really? Do you really believe that most of Germans had the Time machine or were gifted foretellers? I suppose that mainly the Germans followed Hitler, believed in the victory. 1 ) Defeat of the Soviet union was quite possible and didn't happen mainly because huge efforts of the people and women contributed to it a lot.

I wrote about just Western part of Germany without any connection to 2 German states that emerged later. 2 )The Germans in the Western part of Germany - in Rein valley, in Saar, Pfaltz, Schwartzwald expected that in the case of defeat they would be occupied by US/UK/French forces that would not mean annihilation of the Germans as a nation.
1 ) That comment alone would have seen you shot between 1917 -1989 .......

2 ) I know the rest of the Second World War doesn't feature in your history books , but go tell that to the thousands of victims of RAF / USAAF bombing raids and the thousands that were starved as prisoners and forced labour in the immediate aftermath of surrender in May 1945 . Both the Americans and the French tore up the Geneva convention the minute the Germans capitulated .
 
Barbarossa itself was a lack of foresight.
I agree , but Stalingrad was simply a waste of 600,000 lives and two well equipped armies at a time when the lessons of the first winter just 8 months before should have been fresh in their minds .Secondly , every great Wehrmacht victory had been one of encirclement , Hitler would have approved if he'd got the desired result with fewer casualties . Paulus had nothing to fear
 
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Issi

War Hero
I hadn't appreciated quite how big Stalingrad was/is. It spreads for 30 miles along the banks of the Volga. That's a lot of FIBUA!
 
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Fang_Farrier

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
I agree , but Stalingrad was simply a waste of 600,000 lives and two well equipped armies at a time when the lessons of the first winter just 8 months before should have been fresh in their minds .Secondly , every great Wehrmacht victory had been one of encirclement , Hitler would have approved if he'd got the desired result with fewer casualties . Paulus had nothing to fear
It was the first attempt at direct assault on a major city.
All previous cases had been bypassed or encircled
 
It was the first attempt at direct assault on a major city.
All previous cases had been bypassed or encircled
For the Germans, maybe. One thing that struck me as ironic was that the Wehrmacht had senior officers advising the Chinese Nationalist army during the Japanese assault on Shanghai and these officers helped plan (and sometimes lead) the defensive battle. They filed detailed reports of their experiences which seem to have been File 13'd.

They had perhaps the most comprehensive first hand experience of any Western nation on how a large scale FIBUA op would go at that time, whereas the Soviets were learning by doing.
 
I agree , but Stalingrad was simply a waste of 600,000 lives and two well equipped armies at a time when the lessons of the first winter just 8 months before should have been fresh in their minds .Secondly , every great Wehrmacht victory had been one of encirclement , Hitler would have approved if he'd got the desired result with fewer casualties . Paulus had nothing to fear
It could even be argued that the concentration of getting to Berlin by the Allies was pretty much symbolic rather than military. I mean It would not have mattered where Adolf shot himself. The deliberate destruction of symbols really mattered not one jot for those who maintained a belief in the NS system. The old adage is that one cannot kill an idea. The question is whether Russia today is a reformed USSR, in that Putin was nurtured by the Soviet system. Xi is a reactionary in China pretty much in the communist mould. Will that lead to another Chinese civil war based on Taiwan/Formosa So we're pretty much back to where we were a century ago, just the names have changed.
 
I remember reading Craig’s ‘Enemy at the Gates’ in the 70s. A battle fascinating and horrifying in equal measure.
 
That's exactly what I'm asking .... Why , when you know you can encircle at a lower cost ?
I think a lot of it had to do with the name of that particulaer city. Hitler saw a great propoganda opportunity in the capture of a city named after the Soviet leader. I'm sure Goerbels had a speech ready, certainly victory medals had already been struck.
 
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