Stalingrad 1942

...but lets not forget, Germans didn't mobilise their women
In 1945, there numbered 500,000 women auxiliaries in the Wehrmacht (Wehrmachtshelferinnen),[33] who were at the heart of the Heer, the Luftwaffe and the Kriegsmarine. About half of them were volunteers, the others performing obligatory service connected to the war effort (Kriegshilfsdienst).
Also thousands German women were in different SS units.
7,900 women were employed in the clerical unit of the SS, the SS Frauenkorps, and 10,000 as SS auxiliaries or Helferinnen.
 
Something struck me watching that. Quite often mention is made of tanks rolling off the assembly line and into battle, unpainted and manned by factory workers.

That implies that the factories were also munition and fuel dumps as, presumably, the wagons needed to be bombed up prior to action.

Would that have been the case or were they driven to the nearest B echelon to get bombed up and crewed by army types?

I'm not doubting it happened but the logistics involved must have been interesting.
At that point - there was so little of Stalingrad in Soviet hands - the chances are the ammunition depot was probably at the end of the factory.
 
Please red Antony Beevers book on Stalingrad, if you thought you knew all about it (as I did) then you will learn something, even that the Russians would shoot Russian children if they helped the Germans, thats right shoot your own children, nice guys those Russians . . .
well thats why they won, the Russians grasped they were fighting a war of national survival where the ends absolutely justified the means.
 
Last edited:

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
yeah...the use of a hot chick on the front of a YouTube video to engage the fleeting interest of passing browsers is an almost unheard of phenomenon called ' click-bait' :-D

What I thought was useful, helpful and instructive for those of us who haven't read the Beevor tome (It's on the shelf, next on my list of Lockdown Must Reads...honest! ) was the succinct summary of the Nazi hordes approach within the context of the Sixth Army advance into Southern Russia.

(Felton himself at 6:05 comments:

' And if you think I am simply recycling wartime Soviet propaganda, here is an extract from the German 16th Panzer Division war diary: << Right until afternoon, we had to fight shot for shot against 37 anti-aircratf positions, manned by tenacious fighting women>> '


Watch.
Or do not watch.
There is no 'Try'
 

Also thousands German women were in different SS units.
No no no. Chummy you don’t get away with that. Auxiliaries are not the same as women on the front line doing the dirty work. Auxiliaries would be given anything not combat but they can’t be construed in the same way. Even my Aunty was in the Luftwaffe as a telephonist and I think she did duty as a plotter. In actual fact she was also trained as a journalist / stenographer But had her Kaufman diplom. We all had auxiliaries. For Germans the use of women in front line work was anathema. That doesn’t mean there would be some women who wouldn’t be prepared to do it.
 
At that point - there was so little of Stalingrad in Soviet hands - the chances are the ammunition depot was probably at the end of the factory.
I repeat a part of the quote from my post
About half of them were volunteers, the others performing obligatory service connected to the war effort (Kriegshilfsdienst).
 
No no no. Chummy you don’t get away with that. Auxiliaries are not the same as women on the front line doing the dirty work. Auxiliaries would be given anything not combat but they can’t be construed in the same way. Even my Aunty was in the Luftwaffe as a telephonist and I think she did duty as a plotter. In actual fact she was also trained as a journalist / stenographer But had her Kaufman diplom. We all had auxiliaries. For Germans the use of women in front line work was anathema. That doesn’t mean there would be some women who wouldn’t be prepared to do it.
Soviet women mainly served in hospitals, as telephonists, sometime far from the frontline. There were also anti-aircraft female squadrons. Women as fighters on the front line were rare exceptions. Though there were female snipers
Lyudmila Mikhailovna Pavlichenko ... was a Soviet sniper in the Red Army during World War II,[2] credited with 309 confirmed kills
There was also female aircraft regiment where low speed U2 'night bombers' were used. There is a film (comedy) about this regiment
1593868451244.png

1593868086355.png

1593868181909.png


Also take into account that for Germany it was just a war - one of many. For Russia (the Soviet union) it was a question of the very existence of the country, the Russian people.
So there was a reason to mobilise the whole country.
 

QRK2

LE
You could also make the point that Germany had lost the war even before they invaded Poland in September 1939 because they hadn't the resources to fight a global war of attrition lasting years. By December 1941 they had no way of outproducing the combined industrial might of the USA and USSR
This chap would seem to be in violent agreement with you. I'd suggest that the one thing that might have changed the outcome would have been if Dönitz had got the resources he wanted in 1937-40.

Interesting comparison between the relative war eforts of the USSR and Japan as well (possibly in Ep 2)

 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
....and hear Al Murray being erudite.
 
View attachment 486961
It is from famous (in Russia) film (1972). It is not about Stalingrad. Young anti-aircraft female gunners defend railway station from German bombing raids in Karelia.

The lass that you see on the front is a well known actress - Yelena Drapeko
She is now an MP form the Communist party
View attachment 486963

The film became extremely popular in many countries, in China for example. There is Chinese version of "Dawns Here are Quiet" Opera

View attachment 486964
The more modern version of that film in colour is very good. Some really hot Russki totty in it. Especially the part where the ladies are out of uniform in the sauna.

I don't know what Senior Sergeant Ivan Pervertovitch was whinging about. He is the only bloke in a village of women whose men are all at the front. He is shagging his landlady, and then a load of fit female AA gunners turn up.

And he want's to get back to the front FFS.
 
There were also anti-aircraft female squadrons.
Hans Ulrich Rudel, in his memoirs states that then he was flying ground support missions with his Stuka Squadron in the battle of Stalingrad, the fiercest AA fire they encountered was in a sector manned by female gunners. When they were due to fly missions in that sector, on he pre operation briefing he used to say "We have got a date with the Flak girls in sector ---". And he didn't mean that in any disparaging way.
 
Something struck me watching that. Quite often mention is made of tanks rolling off the assembly line and into battle, unpainted and manned by factory workers.

That implies that the factories were also munition and fuel dumps as, presumably, the wagons needed to be bombed up prior to action.

Would that have been the case or were they driven to the nearest B echelon to get bombed up and crewed by army types?

I'm not doubting it happened but the logistics involved must have been interesting.
Most Soviet industry and Arnament factories were relocated lock, stock, and barrel from Western Soviet Russia to behind the Ural mountains to prevent them being overrun, and because they were out of range of the Luftwaffe. The Germans having no long range bombers as the Luftwaffe was designed for close tactical support of the Heer.

I never understood why the Germans didn't make the Caucasus oilfields their major objective in 1941 during Barbarossa as opposed to Moscow. Moscow was just a name. Stalin would have moved his government somewhere else, but without oil the Soviet war machine was f*cked. It didn't matter what they produced in their factories in the Urals or what arrived via allied convoy.

Whether oil via Iran would have been an option, I don't know.
 

Chef

LE
@par avion I did read somewhere that if the Germans had taken Moscow, aside from the blow to Russian morale especially if Stalin had legged it, it was also a sizeable transport hub. So it may have had a long term effect on the Russian war effort.

The mass evacuation of Russian industry out of German range was a major factor in defeating the Germans. If the Luftwaffe had developed a long range bomber it might have been different but Walter Wever* (I've just looked him up) potentially a German Bomber Harris died before that idea could be brought to fruition. Again could have affected the war although it would probably just have delayed the inevitable defeat.

*Walther Wever (general) - Wikipedia
 

exspy

LE
Also take into account that for Germany it was just a war - one of many.
Initially I wanted to think that this comment was due to your unfamiliarity with the subtleties of the English language. But the more I read it, the more I thought you really are saying that for the German people during the War, it really had no meaning to them. I don't understand how anyone who claims to have a knowledge of the War can make this statement. The War was as important to the German population as it was to the Russian. They knew a Russian victory would be the end of Germany, just as the Russian population felt.

You don't do yourself any favours when you put forth such statements when trying to make a point.

Cheers,
Dan.
 
Initially I wanted to think that this comment was due to your unfamiliarity with the subtleties of the English language. But the more I read it, the more I thought you really are saying that for the German people during the War, it really had no meaning to them. I don't understand how anyone who claims to have a knowledge of the War can make this statement. The War was as important to the German population as it was to the Russian. They knew a Russian victory would be the end of Germany, just as the Russian population felt.

You don't do yourself any favours when you put forth such statements when trying to make a point.

Cheers,
Dan.
I am still undecided about the point at which Germany lost the war, but I still think Stalin was far more subtle than Hitler, ignoring the rhetoric in the brinkmamanship of who would invade who first. Stalin was no paragon and he would instigate border incursions after the NS pact was signed. But these were treated by and large as minor incidents.
 
Initially I wanted to think that this comment was due to your unfamiliarity with the subtleties of the English language. But the more I read it, the more I thought you really are saying that for the German people during the War, it really had no meaning to them. I don't understand how anyone who claims to have a knowledge of the War can make this statement. The War was as important to the German population as it was to the Russian. They knew a Russian victory would be the end of Germany, just as the Russian population felt.

You don't do yourself any favours when you put forth such statements when trying to make a point.

Cheers,
Dan.
I made the remark that attracted your attention in the context of the question: why Russian women did participate in combat operations much more actively than German ones?
I proposed an explanation and apparently you either didn't understand it or disagree with it.
Taking into account the nature of Nazi Germany, its ideology the Russians understood that the defeat means annihilation of Russian people. Russian women understood it pretty well. So there were so many volunteers because there was a question about the very existence of Russian nation.
On the initial stages the Germans didn't need women on the front line. In 1944 after offensive operations of the Red army and after opening of the 2d front in France many Germans began to regard defeat as something quite possible. But what did it mean for the Germans at least for those who lived in Western part of Germany? As maximum it meant occupation by US/UK/French forces that would be a tragedy but not absolute catastrophe. In other words for Germany WW2 was just a war - one of many ones and defeat in it would not meant annihilation of German nation. So for this reason there were much less female volunteers to fight on the front line.
 

Latest Threads

Top