St Johns Ambulance 1st Aid training

Discussion in 'ACF' started by Fiji_Bob, Feb 14, 2007.

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  1. I have been pondering what are these connections worth to the ACF?

    Don't get me wrong 1st Aid training is a key skill for all cadets and has proven its worth many times over, with numerous brave exploits and lives saved.

    What I question is who provides this training and a link up with St John's seems a little one way to me.

    They get their numbers boosted by all the cadets that pass their courses and even some of the idle cadets moving over when they get no where with the ACF, but what does the ACF get in return?

    A bunch of kit queens in bat capes who strut around on camps in highly pressed Combat 95, with first aid kits the size of a ¼ ton trailer?

    When anything goes wrong they are no where to be found if it happens anywhere muddy or if found they stick on a plaster and say call an ambulance?

    All this seems a little one way to me and I would like to know why the ACF can not stick to this training in house?

    What does everyone on here think?
  2. The purpose of SJA is not only to provide first Aid, but to teach it to others as well. It is a charitable organisation and volounteers are not paid for their time.
  3. It is St John Ambulance actually
  4. The ACF is not able to qualify people in first aid. Hence they use the St Johns Ambulance Brigade to qualify instructors and cadets.

    Rather than moaning about 'bat caped instructors' the ACF would do better investigating its own so called 'qualified' first aid instructors who have medical kits that would do justice to a field hospital (including tracheas, Sims Portex 'Blue Line' would appear to be the weapon of choice for our WALT medics) and no qualifications, ability or experience to deal with them.
  5. First Aiders are not qualified to do invasive medical procedures. So that means no cutting, injecting or otherwise breaking the skin or inserting things into people.
    Although SJA does contain qualified Medical Professionals (nurses, doctors and paramedics) who are always present at the larger events, and they can do the more advanced procedures. SJA has to provide them with the equipment because they cannot simply half-inch stuff from the NHS hospital were they work.
  6. The young cadets will gain a valuable qualification and experience from the St Johns.

    All of todays workplaces require a qualified first aider and this includes the Army's workplaces. The Army's 1st Aid Training (whatever form it takes or title it goes under) is not considered adequate for this purpose. Amongst the approves training providers is The St Johns Ambulance.

    It appears you are looking down on these people. If you are an instructor you should be ashamed of yourself if you lead your cadets in this frame of mind. If you are a cadet you should just be ashamed and grow up a little. The St Johns Ambulance is a voluntary organisation and these people give up a lot of time to support events that would otherwise not be able to go ahead without them. You would go a long way to follow their example as KAPE should always be positively encouraged.
  7. some Counties have FATAs to train and advise on first aid issues, I was taught First Aid at Work by my county CFATO who is a trainer qualified by SJA to do so.
  8. As dingerr says - all ACF activities require a qualified First Aider to be present. St Johns Ambulance is the means for this - training adults and cadets to standards recognised in civvy street so that our back are covered in the ACF. First Aid is an important life skill for cadets and adults and should be encouraged. St Johns Ambulance teaches First Aid day in and day out and is therefore the professional for teaching it and we should use that to our advantage.

    Regardless of what you do in your civvy job (be it a nurse, doctor, paramedic etc)- you are only insured when being a First Aider on a cadet camp to carry out Basic First Aid. Unless you are there in your professional capacity, being paid by your employer to do your civvy job, with them providing all the equipment. Therefore - taking a cadet to hospital / calling an ambulance if required is the correct thing to do if further medical attention than a plaster is required.

    There are however, a minority of First Aid Walts who think that they can nick equipment from work / other sources and Walt around with that massive FA kit telling stories and pretending to be a hero - these people are dangerous and should be dealt with. It is generally not those who work in the medical profession that are the Walts, making it even more of a serious issue.
  9. Medical professionals have different coloured rank slides when they join to distinguish them from non-professionals and first-aiders.
    If somebody is a qualified Nurse, Doctor or Paramedic, they have full clearance to use their skills in SJA. They aren't going to sit there pretending to be a first aider.

    Actually, the biggest walt I've ever met in SJA was a student paramedic who also happened to be an entry-level commisioned officer within the organisation. He liked turning up to ordinary meetings in his No 2 uniform to remind everybody of his higher rank and general all round superiority (or so he thought anyway).
    Actually, I'm not sure he was a walt per se, as he never claimed he could perform advanced surgery or do anything above first aid without supervision from a grown-up paramedic, but the fact he liked walking in to meetings wearing his uniform when it wasn't necessary marked him out as a massive twat if nothing else. I'm pretty sure he would have loved it if we had to salute him and call him 'sir' as well....... :shakefist:
  10. Sorry Anotherm...w.... I think you misunderstood me. What I am trying to say is that cadet instructors (who happen to be medical professionals as their day job) when on camp are not there as medical cover (except for basic FA capacity) They are there as cadet instructors, on annual leave, days off etc. Therefore are not covered to use their full skills - administer prescription drugs etc - unless they have explicit permission (and know they're covered with insurance) from their employer.

    If they are members of SJA as well (although, I have no idea where they would find the time!) then obviously that has been organised through their employers so when they are on a SJA activity in their SJA uniform, wearing identifying rank slides or whatever - then they are covered.

    And as for Walts - well - whatever they do for a day job - there are those that like to walt their ACF status to the world or those that like to walt their supermedic (or not) status. THankfully, both are a minority and most people just get on and do their job or hobby quietly and professionally.
  11. Now you have got my attention.
    As a former paramedic and member of St John as well as a comercial trainer for St John Ambulance I feel qualified to comment.
    Some of them are genuinly decent people who want nothing more than to contribute something to society. However there are others who are are so far up themselves that if they were hermaphrodites they could artificially inseminate themselves. I cannot understand why we court this organisation in any way shape or form. We would be better off teaching cadets basic first aid and when they get to 16 years offering them a First Aid at Work Course through any reputable organisation registered with the HSE. St John Ambulance officials rest on their laurels far to much. In my opinion thier days as a commercial training organisation are numbered. However, the members who turn out in all weathers and at all times of the day to all events great and small, deserve a medal.
  12. I can think of nothing good to say about SJA First Aid training.

    Its geared up toward getting the student through the assesment at the end, as opposed to making them a good First Aider and passing on merit.

    Its very pink and fluffy with needlessly drawn out subjects leaving little or no scenario based training. It overcomplicates simple things and dumbs down the more advanced (relative to First Aid that is) aspects.

    Though there are some cracking people working under SJA's banner, they are restricted to doing everything the SJA way; sadly a large proportion of the organisation think they are the best at everything and are all to happy to walt it up to that effect.
  13. I totally agree. The organisation has been hijacked by the we know best brigade. They have totally undermined the entire ethos of the organisation which was set up in the late 1800s to provide training and first aid cover for railway workers and miners. All the bull sh1t about knights templar is transient. Although it does make interseting reading.
  14. Knights Hospitaller.

    Those who have taken the FAW in a seperate context to SJA members have probably not had the months of preperation training before going on the FAW. I knew most of the stuff they taught me on the course before I even entered the room. They do do practical assesments as well. Mistakes were tolerated in these practical assessments, but only if we could point out our mistakes afterwards.
    One person on my course failed his FAW.
    You can be reasonably certain that anyone who is a qualified first aider in Saint John will be competent at first aid and know what they're doing. Just as long as you don't expect them to be at the same level as a paramedic or some other professional. (unless they have a coloured rank slide, in which case, do expect them to know something beyond being able to tie a bandage and put a sticky-plaster on).
  15. Disagree with most of that.

    They do practical assessments at the end, because they have got to, its HSE stipulation. Any decent course gets some scenario training in too, so the students can practise some the the skills and use their knowledge to some extent.

    SJA don't.

    When I did an SJA course (my first ever) there were people there performing at a level that made me supremely confident - and it was not misplaced. Yet these people still passed. I distinctly remember a woman who bimbled through her DRABC time and time again like some doddering old bint and performing the worst chest compressions I've still ever seen. Needed coaching through the multi choice test. She passed.

    I have interacted with quite a few SJA bods over the years, some excellent, some who to be honest, I'd take my chances bleeding out on if they came bimbling over to me with that "Hello! Im a first aider!" line SJA insist you vomit forth.

    No one smart expects them to be performing at a level above that of a First Aider, the issue comes when you consider just what a First Aider can actually do: - Very, very little.

    Yet SJA propagate the myth that their volunteers are the best at what they do based upon the fact they are provided about 40 hours extra training over and above the required level. Yet you ask your average SJA First Aider the five pertinant peices of information an ambulance dispatcher will ask, and you generally get a glazed look back.

    Interestingly enough, its important stuff like that that is only minced over on an SJA course.