SS General Otto Kumm Meets Maker.

#1
Otto Kumm, the last commanding general of the 1st SS Panzer Division Leibestandarte Adolf Hitler died in March aged 94. As military formations go, this division was pretty historically and militarily significant, however unsavoury some of its personnel and activities. I don’t know if Kumm was a war criminal or not but he remained a hard core Nazi. His view on the holocaust? ‘I never saw any evidence of it’. That’s that then. GQ would approve.

Nazi holocaust denying tvat or not, I think his passing should be mentioned. I didn’t notice an obituary in any of the broadsheets.
 
#2
Seadog said:
Otto Kumm, the last commanding general of the 1st SS Panzer Division Leibestandarte Adolf Hitler died in March aged 94. As military formations go, this division was pretty historically and militarily significant, however unsavoury some of its personnel and activities. I don’t know if Kumm was a war criminal or not but he remained a hard core Nazi. His view on the holocaust? ‘I never saw any evidence of it’. That’s that then. GQ would approve.

Nazi holocaust denying tvat or not, I think his passing should be mentioned. I didn’t notice an obituary in any of the broadsheets.
He's probably being interrogated by Satan's little elves as I type. Saw some hardcore ex serving Nazi's in Bavaria on Exercise Snow Queen back in the 80's. Old men dressed in uniform. Apparently it was an annual event, a meeting of old German comrades from WW2. The town was OOBs, but the PRI mini-bus took 'a wrong turning' and we spotted what looked like a scene from WW2 in the high street, albeit old blokes!
 
#3
Not a NAZI or white supremesist! However a lot of the SS units were frontline soldiers.not echelon nor policing type units......SS does not automatically mean concentration camp guard or mass murderer.
 
#8
oarlocks ss just good german soldiers :!: they were quite happy to massacre anyone they got hold of and commited loads of warcrimes .
But so did ordinary rank &file members of the wermacht
letterwrtingman what do you dress up as at the weekend :lol:
 
#11
woody said:
do you dress up as at the weekend :lol:
whats this, dressing up...good oh.....bags I get first go at the sheep..whoops wrong web site.... 8O
 
#12
Letterwritingman said:
Not a NAZI or white supremesist! However a lot of the SS units were frontline soldiers.not echelon nor policing type units......SS does not automatically mean concentration camp guard or mass murderer.
SS does mean mass murder - frontline soldiers machine gunning Russian civilians on the Eastern Front, herding French civilians into barns (before lighting). exterminating the Warsaw ghetto and so on all count.

I do have some slight sympathy for the sixteen year-old conscripted into the SS at gunpoint from some crappy part of Europe in April 1945 - but there my sympathy ends. There are (were I suppose these days as they're nearly all dead now) far too many ex-members out there who upon questioning claimed to have been attached to the flower arranging battalion, or the "being nice to foreigners" division.
 
#14
I'm saying that not all SS soldiers were war criminals..hell i don't even like the Boxhead B'stards but I do resepect their soldiering ability.....but your generalisation can obviously mean that every Russian soldier can be classed as a murderer and rapist, all US soldiers where conspirators to their own particular Mai Lai...the French were in violation of human rights post 1945 agreements in their handling of the Algerian problem.the list is endless.........and i did not make a sweeping generalisation I just said that not all the natives of the QLR were guilty of prisoner abuse and that some of them were indeed good soldiers :?:
 
#15
SS does mean mass murder
You've been watching too many John Wayne war films.

I have to agree with LetterWriter here: The SA (Sturmabteilung - Storm trooper) and the SS (Schutzstaffel - originally Hitler's body gaurds) were to start with military-like arms of the Nazi party. As far as I can tell by the time the war kicked off they became the sink for elite soldiers, existing under a different command structure to the regular army. Similar say to our paras/marines apart from the command structure.

Because they were under Nazi command no doubt some units commited more such crimes than the regular army; but to paint them all with the same brush is not fair on some very good soldiers. We might just as well assume all American prison guards torture their prisoners because of some photos. (In fact I believe the POW camp gaurds were SS??)

I've just skimmed this but it makes interesting reading (with the usual caveats for believing anything you read on the web):

http://www.valourandhorror.com/DB/BACK/SS_bkgd.htm

No doubt there are WW2 gurus on this site who know more!
 
#16
Is that old boy at Nuremburg still doing his impressions of Adolf, or has he snuffed it too?

msr
 
#18
I can recommend Michael Reynolds series of books about the SS for those who want a reasonably objective analysis without the near pornographic obsession with kit and badges that characterise a lot of the genre.

I've also read a lot more about WW2, especially the Eastern Front (background for understanding Soviet Operational Art back in the old days, honest) and that's where I get my SS = mass murderers judgement from.

The SS were the Praetorian Guard/Republican Guard for the Third Reich. Hence the obsession with racial and ideological purity - they were there, inter alia, to murder German citizens should that be deemed necessary by the party. The Wehrmacht, as "the German people under arms" would not be so obliging.

Initially the only active service was as concentration camp guards - but even when WW2 was raging it was still the same organisation. Soldiers got posted around and got on with the job wherever they were regardless.

They were also bloody good soldiers and a lot of serious study has been carried out to find out why as if the Red Army had ever flung itself across Europe we would like to have performed as well tactically as they did. Without losing operationally and strategically of course.

During the closing stages of WW2 they saw themselves as crusading to hold back the Bolshevik hordes - but, hey, who started it ? We tend to forget that the Red Army was made up of soldiers who had lost family members to the Nazis on a scale not seen anywhere else. While I cannot condone what the Red Army did I can understand it - if had lost family, liberated the extermination camps and then hit Berlin I wouldn't be in a very good mood either.

The bottom line is, if some didn't massacre innocents it is only because they were never ordered to. Their entire ethos and training was geared at lower levels to doing exactly what they were told and at higher levels to realising Hitler's insane racial schemes. We should not let our admiration of their soldierly qualities blind us to that fact.
 
#19
O-o-t-s, Interesting reply though it struggles to form a comprehensive argument in favour of the statement that all SS soldiers were muderers. I dispute your claim that they were only there initially used to provide guards for the concentration camps for example (and I researched so no SI reqd) one of the first Iron Crosses of the war went to SS-Sturmbannfuhrer Fritz Vogt. i can give more names if you wish.............

Observation. Generalisation is dangerous.

Recommendation. Infantry Aces of the Reich by Gordon Williamson refers 8)
 
#20
One of the Strange wrote
can recommend Michael Reynolds series of books about the SS for those who want a reasonably objective analysis without the near pornographic obsession with kit and badges that characterise a lot of the genre.
Quite so. Major General MR is one of ours and about as objective as it gets. He’s a pragmatist and no apologist. Well researched right down to face to face meetings with key players. Not a fetishist.

Those interested in Waffen SS history and personalities fall into two groups. There are those with an objective interest and then there are those sad sacks who use ‘Panzer Meyer@....’ as an e mail address and dress up at weekends. Caution is required. As the Waffen SS wore the same (very snazzy) uniform as the camp guards and Einsatzgruppen, even the blameless and honourable have a tough time being accepted as just ordinary soldiers. Reconciliation is possible though:

Lt Colonel (later Major General) Frost and one of his opponents at Arnhem, Generalmajor der Waffen SS (Later Herr) Harmel (10th SS Panzer) pictured in 1979. Frost died in 1993, Harmel in 2000.



Two old boys, one 10th SS Panzer the other Para umpteen years later. If they can be reconciled, who the fcuk are we….? Equally, if they still hate each other....



Both photographs from www.marketgarden.com

Otto Kumm denied the holocaust. Whatever his attributes as a soldier and division commander, he is/was a KNOB! Still a significant passing.
 

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