SPORT- IS IT A PROBLEM?

#1
I do wonder why some people in management deter soldiers from doing sport at a repersentative level , that is to say , releasing them from work to repersent regiment,Corps etc. Now, i hear the argument ref. soldiers on ex/ops/courses/etc. but this goes really, out to the few that resent the fact of having soldiers as sportsman .Those of you forget one of the main selling points of the British Army is funnily enough sport.
Remember the Army ethos' espirt de corps ?



P.A. RIP
 
#2
i see where you are coming from,however lets be realistic,blokes being sent back off of operational tours for a week here and week there to represent regiment etc when we are already strapped for man power is utter bulls**t,all well and good for matey boy back in blighty but not for his mucker who has copped his patrols etc
 
#3
sorry never been a problem in any units ive been. Having said that coming back from an op tour for sport !!!
 
#4
Yep, point taken. As a manager surely you would/could identify those that are sportsman and manage them accordingly? e.g How would one cope with a high calibre sportsman i.e Army/combined services standard ? I think in the past and from experience, soldiers/officers can be made to feel a little alienated because of their sporting prowess. I do believe that there is no need at all for this .Why not get behind them, pat them on the back and let them no, that were all proud of him/her ? One person doesn't knock a section , platoon/troop , sqn/coy , bn/regt sideways , surely ?
 
#5
I'v never seen anyone returned from Ops for a sporting comitment. Personaly i will do all i can to release people to play regie/corps sport, sport is one of the few perks we have left - it has the obvious benefits for physical fitness and helps built esprit de corps and regimental pride.

Anyone who has a problem with people being released for sport during the normal working routine, need to consider that sporting opportunities are not exclusively for the talented. Join a club, take something up and start enjoying the benefits of which you are obviously jealous.

Boney
 
#6
Well put boney. From speaking to people that i know there does seem to be a few knobs out there . People born with two left feet etc.(Not that i would mock the afflicted)
 
#7
carpetsfm7sr94champs said:
Well put boney.(Not that i would mock the afflicted)
Why not? Its so funny :wink:

Seriously, i hate whinges for the sake of it. Whinging because you cant be arrsed to join in is pointless. And would make me far more likely to volunteer the individual for the Regimental Cross Country comp.

Boney
 
#8
Yeah im just really wandering how the so called managers work with this particular scenario. Apologys for the relative seriousness genleman & fems.
 
#9
Carpets, while I agree with you in principle the problem usually arises in independant Troops and Squadrons, especially overseas. In a Regiment one person will have little on routine work. But if you have a small section of a particular trade then over time the constant need to cover that soldiers work and duties can bring resentment from within his peer group. Bare in mind that when overseas any soldier who has to return for sport will spend very little time at his unit as they will require 3 days for travel, practise and a match, the other 2 are spent arrange flights for the next practise session or game.

MCM needs to be responsable in where it sends known Corps and Army players, rather than using the attitude of he/shes a Tech so will go here the Corps or the Army need to request that soldier is posted in locality to the Squad they play for i.e Aldershot for footy etc.

As for Regimental sport I agree 100% either the lads/lasses get involved and benefit from getting out of the office/workshops and or they shut up and man the phones!!
 
#10
Disco said:
As for Regimental sport I agree 100% either the lads/lasses get involved and benefit from getting out of the office/workshops and or they shut up and man the phones!!
Well said disco but you never answer your phone!
 
#11
Agree with the points raised by Disco. I have played Regtl level sport in all of my previous units, although have never come back fm Ops/Ex to do so.

I think the Corps is pretty good at putting sportsmen/women where they can do both their trade and sport. However understand the reality of the fact that gladiators are sometimes on the sports pitch more often than in the garages.

Point is that whilst pers who don't play sport see their sporting contempories disappear on a Weds afternoon to play tend to think they are being hard done by, they miss the fact that often Regtl players do not get back to late at night. Additionally trg sessions are almost always after work or during lunchtime, weekends are not ruled out either.

Now I'm not complaining as one of the main reasons for remaining in the Army is the opportunity to play the beautiful game on a regular basis. But pers who don't play would do well to remember the extra-curricular commitments of their sporting counter parts
 
#12
ArmyYid said:
Agree with the points raised by Disco. I have played Regtl level sport in all of my previous units, although have never come back fm Ops/Ex to do so.

I think the Corps is pretty good at putting sportsmen/women where they can do both their trade and sport. However understand the reality of the fact that gladiators are sometimes on the sports pitch more often than in the garages.

Point is that whilst pers who don't play sport see their sporting contempories disappear on a Weds afternoon to play tend to think they are being hard done by, they miss the fact that often Regtl players do not get back to late at night. Additionally trg sessions are almost always after work or during lunchtime, weekends are not ruled out either.

Now I'm not complaining as one of the main reasons for remaining in the Army is the opportunity to play the beautiful game on a regular basis. But pers who don't play would do well to remember the extra-curricular commitments of their sporting counter parts

It is not often that i would agree with a YID but he makes a valid point. ive represented the beloved corps over a number of years and still have maintained the happy balance between sport and work comitments. to add another twist ...what gets my back up in particular rugby players who cant make the basic military standard ie pass BCFT and attain green in BPFA but are excellent at the sport of rugby. certainly my CO wont release soldiers matter not at what level for sport sqn right thru to army unless they acheive these BASIC standards. You get fit for sport not play sport to get fit. being big my be all well and good on the rugby pitch but you have to potentially carry this bulk around on operational tours, exercises and in the extreme the battlefield.
 
#13
happyhammer said:
ArmyYid said:
Agree with the points raised by Disco. I have played Regtl level sport in all of my previous units, although have never come back fm Ops/Ex to do so.

I think the Corps is pretty good at putting sportsmen/women where they can do both their trade and sport. However understand the reality of the fact that gladiators are sometimes on the sports pitch more often than in the garages.

Point is that whilst pers who don't play sport see their sporting contempories disappear on a Weds afternoon to play tend to think they are being hard done by, they miss the fact that often Regtl players do not get back to late at night. Additionally trg sessions are almost always after work or during lunchtime, weekends are not ruled out either.

Now I'm not complaining as one of the main reasons for remaining in the Army is the opportunity to play the beautiful game on a regular basis. But pers who don't play would do well to remember the extra-curricular commitments of their sporting counter parts

It is not often that i would agree with a YID but he makes a valid point. ive represented the beloved corps over a number of years and still have maintained the happy balance between sport and work comitments. to add another twist ...what gets my back up in particular rugby players who cant make the basic military standard ie pass BCFT and attain green in BPFA but are excellent at the sport of rugby. certainly my CO wont release soldiers matter not at what level for sport sqn right thru to army unless they acheive these BASIC standards. You get fit for sport not play sport to get fit. being big my be all well and good on the rugby pitch but you have to potentially carry this bulk around on operational tours, exercises and in the extreme the battlefield.
Top answer HH

Only a fellow Hammer could talk such sense! No doubt the same could be applied to other such sports that require bulk to excel; Tug-of-war, throwing events etc. Athletes through and through but unable to run a mile and a half!
 
#14
I dont post that much but this topic has come up a couple of times at work. Nominating sportspersons for deployments to be second guessed because they were needed to represent the unit/team/etc.

To say it got my back up is an understatement, and i work on the principle of best person for the mission, be they a sportsperson or not i was always led to believe they were employed in trade and not in football/rugby/triathalon to name a few. I refuse to let the buggers duck operations on the basis of important sports fixtures or am i not seeing the big picture here. Just to clarify its always the best person for the mission/ex regardless of anything else except compassionate reasons that governs my decisions/recommendations.

That said im not anti sports superstars as i believe that the Army is a package with sport being a component of it, however, not at the cost of operational effectiveness and others having to do the extra exercises/operations just to ensure that this particular team wins the league or cup.

And yes one person does knock things sideways sometimes, and of course you have to ask yourself or you doing what is morally right at the end of the day. Can you sleep with the knowledge that some other poor tom has deployed on Ops to cover your job so that a trophy cabinet is replenished.

Oh well thats my little take on it all, im feeling a bit alone in this sea of sportstars, maybe im the only one who thinks this way, will be interesting to see......
 
#15
cambrai said:
I refuse to let the buggers duck operations on the basis of important sports fixtures or am i not seeing the big picture here. Just to clarify its always the best person for the mission/ex regardless of anything else except compassionate reasons that governs my decisions/recommendations.
Yes you are missing the big picture. The majority of Corps/Army/Combined Services sportsmen are keen to get on ops as much as anyone else. They know it is good for the profile. As an alledged manager/leader it is your job to try and create the the opportunity for them to do all they can and not be so narrow minded to think that "he's always away on sport I'll dick him now". Sportsmen put a lot of time and effort (usually their own time) into providing good publicity for their units, corps and the Army. If alledged managers/leaders thought beyond their own inability to contribute fully to the wider community and realised the potential of some of their junior soldiers in their ability to put something positive into unit life then perhaps we would all live in a better place.

Narrow minded views that sportsmen do nothing but sit around in their tracksuits all day does nothing but piss off those sportsmen that are actively trying to balance the requirements of their Commanding Officers as well as the requirements of the Corps/Arm or Service that wants to be represented by them. Junior management (Tp/Sqn Comd level) should realise that some very junior soldiers already have enough to deal with in trying to do their best for everyone and balance their careers without Tp SSgts giving them grief for something that they are good at. More praise and pride in your soldiers achievements may gain you a little more respect and a more productive soldier.

happyhammer said:
ive represented the beloved corps over a number of years and still have maintained the happy balance between sport and work comitments. to add another twist ...what gets my back up in particular rugby players who cant make the basic military standard ie pass BCFT and attain green in BPFA but are excellent at the sport of rugby. certainly my CO wont release soldiers matter not at what level for sport sqn right thru to army unless they acheive these BASIC standards. You get fit for sport not play sport to get fit. being big my be all well and good on the rugby pitch but you have to potentially carry this bulk around on operational tours, exercises and in the extreme the battlefield.
And that is just utter tosh. The BPFA is an assessment. It has two aims :

Firstly to assist unit PT staff in directing unit PT to focus in the areas of weakness generically within a unit.

Secondly to assist individuals in assessing thir own ability to do upper body strength activities, abdominal exercises and anaerobic exercise (in the form of a 1.5 mile run).

Your assumption that get fit for sport not the other way round may be a basic premise but by depriving an individual of physical activity that he/she enjoys do you really think there is an incentive to run any faster in a 1.5 mile run? Rubbish. All forms of activity that promote fitness should be encouraged, not getting a green on your 1.5 mile run but can prop against internationals for Northampton for 80 minutes on a saturday, I know which one I would consider to be fitter and which one the army will splash all over the papers as an army role model.

Edit:

(Apologies to Mr Budgen I am sure he can run 1.5 miles in the prescribed time and he shouldn't consider huntimg me down and beating me up)
 
#16
An interesting read Mr Bowman



As an alledged manager/leader it is your job to try and create the the opportunity for them to do all they can and not be so narrow minded to think that "he's always away on sport I'll dick him now
Not sure having read my post twice again that i said i ever dick a person on the basis of sporting excellence or time away, if you read again you will see i actually stated that it is the persons relevance to the mission that is the deciding factor.


Junior management (Tp/Sqn Comd level) should realise that some very junior soldiers already have enough to deal with in trying to do their best for everyone and balance their careers without Tp SSgts giving them grief for something that they are good at. More praise and pride in your soldiers achievements may gain you a little more respect and a more productive soldier.

Maybe we should give them free IPODs when they win a match or perhaps a long weekend to compensate. Also note that i was not gender specific in any of my post though you were in reply. You also seem to have formed the opinion that im a Tp SSgt giving grief, this is an interesting perception but unfortunately inaccuate on both counts.

Looking at your views on the employment of sports persons i must admit im out of touch, i always held the belief that we were here for work and not for the sporting development of a select few. Maybe its best im out of here in a couple of years, however, until then i will stand by what i believe is morally the right thing to do, and if that leaves a gap in mid field then i apologise to you Mr Bowman but needs must.

Just one final point, please dont try to guess the level of respect or indeed the level of productivity of soldiers i come in to contact with on a day to day basis, you to my knowledge dont have that insight.


Respectfully Yours
 
#17
Bow_Man said:
cambrai said:
I refuse to let the buggers duck operations on the basis of important sports fixtures or am i not seeing the big picture here. Just to clarify its always the best person for the mission/ex regardless of anything else except compassionate reasons that governs my decisions/recommendations.
Yes you are missing the big picture. The majority of Corps/Army/Combined Services sportsmen are keen to get on ops as much as anyone else. They know it is good for the profile. As an alledged manager/leader it is your job to try and create the the opportunity for them to do all they can and not be so narrow minded to think that "he's always away on sport I'll dick him now". Sportsmen put a lot of time and effort (usually their own time) into providing good publicity for their units, corps and the Army. If alledged managers/leaders thought beyond their own inability to contribute fully to the wider community and realised the potential of some of their junior soldiers in their ability to put something positive into unit life then perhaps we would all live in a better place.

Narrow minded views that sportsmen do nothing but sit around in their tracksuits all day does nothing but urine off those sportsmen that are actively trying to balance the requirements of their Commanding Officers as well as the requirements of the Corps/Arm or Service that wants to be represented by them. Junior management (Tp/Sqn Comd level) should realise that some very junior soldiers already have enough to deal with in trying to do their best for everyone and balance their careers without Tp SSgts giving them grief for something that they are good at. More praise and pride in your soldiers achievements may gain you a little more respect and a more productive soldier.

happyhammer said:
ive represented the beloved corps over a number of years and still have maintained the happy balance between sport and work comitments. to add another twist ...what gets my back up in particular rugby players who cant make the basic military standard ie pass BCFT and attain green in BPFA but are excellent at the sport of rugby. certainly my CO wont release soldiers matter not at what level for sport sqn right thru to army unless they acheive these BASIC standards. You get fit for sport not play sport to get fit. being big my be all well and good on the rugby pitch but you have to potentially carry this bulk around on operational tours, exercises and in the extreme the battlefield.
And that is just utter tosh. The BPFA is an assessment. It has two aims :

Firstly to assist unit PT staff in directing unit PT to focus in the areas of weakness generically within a unit.

Secondly to assist individuals in assessing thir own ability to do upper body strength activities, abdominal exercises and anaerobic exercise (in the form of a 1.5 mile run).

Your assumption that get fit for sport not the other way round may be a basic premise but by depriving an individual of physical activity that he/she enjoys do you really think there is an incentive to run any faster in a 1.5 mile run? Rubbish. All forms of activity that promote fitness should be encouraged, not getting a green on your 1.5 mile run but can prop against internationals for Northampton for 80 minutes on a saturday, I know which one I would consider to be fitter and which one the army will splash all over the papers as an army role model.

Edit:

(Apologies to Mr Budgen I am sure he can run 1.5 miles in the prescribed time and he shouldn't consider huntimg me down and beating me up)
i did say attain a green not pass fail for BPFA and i did not for one minute say we must deprive soldiers of sport.. indeed the opposite was intende but you do have to pass the BCFT and in my Bde its the Comd policy that all soldiers pass the ACFT. all im saying is that if your cant acheive these as a commander how can you justify releasing soldiers to representative sports. what does this say to the siggies and such like who maintain standards. lead by example and if the cap fits wear it!
 
#18
Let's not forget adventure training. It's for winners.

In the troop where I work, all NCOs are expected to get themselves at least 1 x Adv Trg instr qual. It's quality time away in Army time and it's another bit to stick in your CR. And these aren't RD-types, they're IS Engrs.
 
#19
cambrai said:
You also seem to have formed the opinion that im a Tp SSgt giving grief, this is an interesting perception but unfortunately inaccuate on both counts.

....

Looking at your views on the employment of sports persons i must admit im out of touch, i always held the belief that we were here for work and not for the sporting development of a select few. Maybe its best im out of here in a couple of years, however, until then i will stand by what i believe is morally the right thing to do, and if that leaves a gap in mid field then i apologise to you Mr Bowman but needs must.
Some solid arguments in reply. However you should note that actually I couldn't care what rank/influence you have over soldiers under your command. The paragraph was a general whinge. The simple fact is that often the middle management are so focussed on their own day to day business that they do forget the big picture.... all too often junior soldiers are effectively bullied away from playing sport due to the narrow minded view of the few of those that don't. Sport is an integral part of army life, if you don't like it please don't wait the couple of years go somewhere where it is not important. It is a means of allowing soldiers to develop as a team and to provide leadership and project management opportunities to some that very rarely get to show their true potential. As for your views on Ipods ...grow up fella, but yes oddly enough the odd day off probably wouldn't be too bad for an individual who for example had just taken part in a 100 km run or even an Army Cup final, if you deemed that he was worthy of such an award.

In addition sport allows soldiers some opportunities that in todays army are often missing. I know that recently soldiers from the Corps have been in New Zealand taking part in the Services Games, in South Africa playing rugby and shooting, in Australia taking part in Ultra Marathon running (and coming first as a team), the Corps rugby team toured Canada last year and the Swimming and waterpolo teams where in the states the year before. If you feel that soldiers should miss out on these opportunities then please let us know.

The simple fact is that if soldiers were to sit around the garages all day then lets face it we would have a very easy job to do. Running a sports team and taking part at Tp, Sqn, Regt, Army and CS level is not only allowing soldiers opportunities that they may never have, but also allows you to stand above the rest in a promotion board because your report will have in it "This man adds value!" If you don't add value then please don't whinge. (by the way doing your job isn't necessarily adding value).

PS I am very sorry that I did't use gender free terminology all the way through my last post. For Sportsmen read sportspeople I think as a word it may catch on ....
I must go back and redo my EO advisors course and tell you all about how important gender fair fitness assessments are, especially when you're considering who you should / should not allow to attend representative sport or for that matter your next op tour.

Mr Bowman (rotflmto)

PPS do you consider properly organised sports afternoons to be the development of the select few or do you just not bother with them and only begrudgingly allow the gladiators to take part in sport?
 
#20
Mr Bowman ;-)

Some good examples of trips taken by solidiers representing various units/formations. Of course wouldnt it be great if i was at that standard and could go too. Alas im not but dont for a minute think im bitter or twisted about it, just some excel in certain ways and thats fair enough.

Maybe we have detracted from my earlier point which was Operations and Exercises, not i may add daily routine which of course allows for sporting development. But thinking about it, doesnt deploying on Ex/Op allow for development of leadership, teamwork and indeed in some cases project management ? After all why do we seek to develop these qualities in our soldiers ?

I get away for sports as much as others where i work, but not at the cost of work. My bone of contention was being questioned about sending/nominating the right person for an Op just because this individual had a sporting calender that clashed with doing his/her job. Normal working day/week then no worries as long as line manager agrees.

To summarise i have no objection whatsoever in people getting away not only to do sports but education also if work permits. What i do have a bone of contention is people being excused Ops/Ex on the basis of sporting fixtures. Maybe im not PC enough and think that a individuals sporting development outweighs the Mission. Oh well, ill just continue as i am for my time left.

Just a final couple of points

If you don't add value then please don't whinge. (by the way doing your job isn't necessarily adding value).
Im sorry that you feel that doing ones job doesnt add value, i can only suggest you change CEQ and find something more fulfulling. I assure you i enjoy mine and surprisingly i add value (so ive been told !)



PPS do you consider properly organised sports afternoons to be the development of the select few or do you just not bother with them and only begrudgingly allow the gladiators to take part in sport?
No i actually think they are a great way of introducing people to sports that they may never have considered trying, and of course as previously stated i take mine when i can

PS Do you consider sport the only avenue for development of a soldier/individual ?

PPS Do you consider that your efforts in work are appreciated as much they should be, what i mean to say, sport aside, do you feel you add value ? :)

PPPS I wish my internet would go down as im sure im digging my hole that deeper with each post
 

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