Speech of Ehud Olmert, Prime Minister of the State of Israel

Arik said:
Castlereagh - something vexing you tonight? So you have heard of Petach Tikva, try another google search so that you can imply knowledge of the country, try looking up where the words Petcah Tikva come from and what is implied by them.

If you read my comment, you will see that I said that there was farming land (implied already in agricultural use). My point was that European investment in terms of money, manual labour and new techniques improved farming in the area and also, large areas of land which were incapable of being used for agriculture were reclaimedfrom swamps or desert.

errrrrrrr could Petach Tikva be the first agricultural settlement set up by Rabbi Solomon or whatever he was called? - Seriously what do I win? Could it also be that contrary to myth, Ottoman records show that the land purchased by the Rabbi also included cultivated land? Because 30k in dunums is quite big. FFS, do you really think they ate mud for all that time?
 
With international public support for Israel on the wane - even prior to this action (what is it actually being called?) Israel should be pleased to be getting out without slapped wrists.

They started a ground offensive, got their fingers burnt and now have the joy of getting another countries young men to hold the ground that they have won (well bombed and destroyed but never secured). All the benefits of occupying an area with none of the cost to your own nation.

Its a nice plan (for Israel) Shame for the bloke from faraway-ville who has to get shot at by both sides just to keep the two sides apart.

Especially as Im certain Israeli war planes and Hezbollah fighters are sure to make the Un feel welcome, all the while the Un being incapable of responding to aggresion for fear of "creating trouble" as though there wasnt enough of it already.
 

Arik

LE
castlereagh said:
Arik said:
Castlereagh - something vexing you tonight? So you have heard of Petach Tikva, try another google search so that you can imply knowledge of the country, try looking up where the words Petcah Tikva come from and what is implied by them.

If you read my comment, you will see that I said that there was farming land (implied already in agricultural use). My point was that European investment in terms of money, manual labour and new techniques improved farming in the area and also, large areas of land which were incapable of being used for agriculture were reclaimedfrom swamps or desert.

errrrrrrr could Petach Tikva be the first agricultural settlement set up by Rabbi Solomon or whatever he was called? - Seriously what do I win? Could it also be that contrary to myth, Ottoman records show that the land purchased by the Rabbi also included cultivated land? Because 30k in dunums is quite big. FFS, do you really think they ate mud for all that time?

Castlereagh - not disputing that there was farming (of cultivated) land which had existed over centuries (see I have highlighted my previous comment to make it clear to you), I am making a point of how it developed and grew both in terms of sophistication and also in usable agricultural area subsequent to the 1880/90s.

For your efforts you win a trip to the farming community of Metulla (circa 1890s)! Now you can google search your information to find out where that is.
 

Awol

LE
Pillager said:
With international public support for Israel on the wane - even prior to this action (what is it actually being called?) Israel should be pleased to be getting out without slapped wrists.

They started a ground offensive, got their fingers burnt and now have the joy of getting another countries young men to hold the ground that they have won (well bombed and destroyed but never secured). All the benefits of occupying an area with none of the cost to your own nation.

Its a nice plan (for Israel) Shame for the bloke from faraway-ville who has to get shot at by both sides just to keep the two sides apart.

Especially as Im certain Israeli war planes and Hezbollah fighters are sure to make the Un feel welcome, all the while the Un being incapable of responding to aggresion for fear of "creating trouble" as though there wasnt enough of it already.

Got their fingers burnt? By creating a 30 km DMZ within 4 weeks? How's that then? By any standards that's a success, unless you think Hezbollah are going to still be firing dozens of missiles into Israel whilst surrounded by 30,000 very alert troops.
 

Nehustan

On ROPS
On ROPs
A famous axiom (paraphrased) that springs to mind often used to illustrate ethnocentricity...

"People A from Colonial power B finds land C much to the suprise of people D who had lived there for millenia"

Insert population/geographic region as appropriate.
 
It might be possible for Israel to continue pouring the military over the border into Lebanon, but it is becoming increasingly apparent that such an action is winning them no favours internationally and the sooner they can withdraw the sooner relations with the West will become cordial.
 

Arik

LE
Pillager said:
.....and now have the joy of getting another countries young men to hold the ground that they have won (well bombed and destroyed but never secured). All the benefits of occupying an area with none of the cost to your own nation.

Its a nice plan (for Israel) Shame for the bloke from faraway-ville who has to get shot at by both sides just to keep the two sides apart.
........

Israel would rather not have the UN there, it has proved worthless on Israel's borders (with the exception of the force on the Golan) over several decades and on several areas of border. Rather this is a 'mid-way' deal so long as the UN actually act as a proper buffer and not a toothless force, then it could be successful solution.
 
Arik said:
castlereagh said:
Arik said:
Castlereagh - something vexing you tonight? So you have heard of Petach Tikva, try another google search so that you can imply knowledge of the country, try looking up where the words Petcah Tikva come from and what is implied by them.

If you read my comment, you will see that I said that there was farming land (implied already in agricultural use). My point was that European investment in terms of money, manual labour and new techniques improved farming in the area and also, large areas of land which were incapable of being used for agriculture were reclaimedfrom swamps or desert.

errrrrrrr could Petach Tikva be the first agricultural settlement set up by Rabbi Solomon or whatever he was called? - Seriously what do I win? Could it also be that contrary to myth, Ottoman records show that the land purchased by the Rabbi also included cultivated land? Because 30k in dunums is quite big. FFS, do you really think they ate mud for all that time?

Castlereagh - not disputing that there was farming (of cultivated) land which had existed over centuries (see I have highlighted my previous comment to make it clear to you), I am making a point of how it developed and grew both in terms of sophistication and also in usable agricultural area subsequent to the 1880/90s.

For your efforts you win a trip to the farming community of Metulla (circa 1890s)! Now you can google search your information to find out where that is.

Seriously lets forget the fact that I was taught by a student of Doumani for second because your talking wack - Palestinian farming did not just consist of subsistence farming, the mediterranean trade route also included an transference of farming ideas. So sophistication in framing did not just appear with Zionist immigrants, since the Palestinians were quite successful in farming the land they had there was no need to do all that reclamation business land. There is no doubt that zionist farmers increaed the land in use I don't doubt that but I don't like your original assertion that Palestine was some sort of wasteland that was only 'rescued' by zionist immigration. Of course European farming technology was more advanced but to say that the Palestinians or the Ottomans were not aware of it is just hokum.
 

Nehustan

On ROPS
On ROPs
I'm remembering an 'Archaeology' course I took (taught by an 'Israeli' by the way). I seem to recall that Agriculture and much domestication of crops is thought to have first occured in the Levant/fertile crescent. Just a thought.
 

Arik

LE
Pillager said:
It might be possible for Israel to continue pouring the military over the border into Lebanon, but it is becoming increasingly apparent that such an action is winning them no favours internationally and the sooner they can withdraw the sooner relations with the West will become cordial.

The IDF is still using only a proportion of it's forces over the border. It will probably keep the same troops mobilised until the end of the hostilities as mass mobilisation is too costly and is not required.

Of course, if Israel were to pull back asap it would 'ease' relations with the West. However, the West wont guarantee a return of the POWs and if the Hezb threat is not dismantled/disabled/reduced the West will not guarantee protection of the north (unless if in utopia a force was put into the area that would actually do this). So while these 2 issues are still outstanding IMHO relations with any 1 or group of Western countries are secondary especially in the latter case. Would any Western country allow it's borders to be threatened like this?

In regard to the UN biting either side, if it is ineffective it wont be doing much biting and if it does it's job, then it will have no need to bite Israel.
 
Is the border under threat?
I apprecaite there is a hostile force over the border but are Hezbollah actually trying to encroach on Israeli land or are they just trying to realise the actual land boundaries tht have already been set out and agreed to?
 

Arik

LE
Pillager said:
Is the border under threat?
I apprecaite there is a hostile force over the border but are Hezbollah actually trying to encroach on Israeli land or are they just trying to realise the actual land boundaries tht have already been set out and agreed to?

One of Hezb's declared aims is about the Sheba farm area and this could be seen as an encroachment (and IMHO is a kind of side issue) but the answer to your first question above is yes.
The northern border civilian communities have been on the receiving end of incoming since 2000 as they are so close. This is the surface of the real threat which has subsequently been shown to be alot more lethal and far reaching. Such a threat has been allowed to grow by successive Israeli govts since withdrawal due to the bitter pill of '82-00.
However, Hezb have dealings elsewhere with other nations who seek to inflame matters and Hezb is one such way to do so.
 
If Hezb are a puppet of other governments and it is the other governments that are orchestrating anti Israeli sentiment, why is Israel not targetting the roots of Hezbollah as opposed to the bloke with the katyusha in the olive grove, who can be easily replaced by any of his like minded compatriots.
 

Trip_Wire

RIP
RIP

Arik

LE
Pillager said:
If Hezb are a puppet of other governments and it is the other governments that are orchestrating anti Israeli sentiment, why is Israel not targetting the roots of Hezbollah as opposed to the bloke with the katyusha in the olive grove, who can be easily replaced by any of his like minded compatriots.

Hezb are not pure puppets and can and will follow their own strategy. Going after the main sponsors brings it's own issues and problems politically and militarily as we are all aware.
Hezb (in it's own right) is too potent a threat to ignore, their main aim is directed at Israel so supposing even if their sponsors were dealt with, Hezb would still need to be dealt with also.
The 'bloke in the orchard' will always be replaced, no doubt on that. It is the nature of the region. The idea is to destroy their command control comms kit, etc and put them down faster then they can react.
 
Their command control and weapons are supplied by their friends to the east.

For as long as young Lebanese men and women feel threatened by Israel they will keep asking their foreign sponsors for weapons, For as long as "disproportional" force is used against the people of Lebanon there will be willing amrtyrs to Hezbollahs cause.

Proportional force would engage solely the military targets it would lend credence to the Israeli regime but for as long as Israeli foriegn policy is associated with zionism and its principles of a Jewish only land then Palestinians and Lebanese people will not see Israeli action as defensive.
Especially when "self defence" is delivered in the form of 500lb bombs from several thousand feet.
 

Arik

LE
Responses in bold:-

Pillager said:
Their command control and weapons are supplied by their friends to the east.

I was talking about their local command control and equipment, if this is taken out/hit they will become inoperable

For as long as young Lebanese men and women feel threatened by Israel they will keep asking their foreign sponsors for weapons, For as long as "disproportional" force is used against the people of Lebanon there will be willing amrtyrs to Hezbollahs cause.

Until the spat up north, Lebanon led a relatively normal life, the action from Israel came as a result of Hezb activity (we can argue that one all night I suspect)

Proportional force would engage solely the military targets it would lend credence to the Israeli regime but for as long as Israeli foriegn policy is associated with zionism and its principles of a Jewish only land then Palestinians and Lebanese people will not see Israeli action as defensive.
Especially when "self defence" is delivered in the form of 500lb bombs from several thousand feet.

However, what is a 'military target'? Launchers amongst civilian buildings, command centres in apartment blocks, equipment caches in diffferent civilian structures, transportation routes for the movement of men & material, communication masts for comms, etc. Hezb use the locals for cover, it is the way they operate.
'Jewish only land', maybe maybe not - points about this can be found on other threads (again can be argued all night), but remember some of those killed in these rocket attacks have been arab Israelis, arab Israelis sit in the Knesset, Druze/Bedu soldiers have died for Israel for 60 odd years, etc etc - the broad brush image of Israel is not what it can be portrayed to be by adverse media, or the absolute ignorance of some etc.
 
I agree with your comments regarding the ethnic diversity of Israel but perception of Zionist policy is important for Israel or it should be, Zionism and its effects win Israel few favours, the further the government can distance itself from such policies the better for all involved.

If the problem with Hezbollah is locating individual targets in densely populated areas then maybe Hezbollah need to be fought from a different angle. Removing the motivation behind Lebanese and Palestinian attacks would mean that no-one wanted to fire rockets into Israel.
 

Arik

LE
My replies in bold:-

Pillager said:
I agree with your comments regarding the ethnic diversity of Israel but perception of Zionist policy is important for Israel or it should be, Zionism and its effects win Israel few favours, the further the government can distance itself from such policies the better for all involved.

Perception of 'Zionism' is driven by the median which spreads the wider message i.e. the press. As an aside, your average Israeli does not think about Zionism per se, just 'normal' everyday political issues e.g. taxes, prices, holidays, etc and obviously security

If the problem with Hezbollah is locating individual targets in densely populated areas then maybe Hezbollah need to be fought from a different angle. Removing the motivation behind Lebanese and Palestinian attacks would mean that no-one wanted to fire rockets into Israel.

It would be great if Hezb could be 'got at' some other way - unfortunately that is a real impossibility, hence why they operate this way.
If groups like Hezb, IJ, Hamas, etc had no reason to attack Israel they would cease to exist. This is not in their own best interests, they will therefore will always find some form of motivation to continue their 'struggle'
 
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