Spams indulging in Weapons Immersion training

SPAM wpn handling & marksmanship:

  • Should really, finally, learn the difference between their rifles and their guns rather than just si

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Leaves a little to be desired

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • They're rather competent fellows, actually!

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Cack...

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
#1
...because of a certain endemic problem involving NDs... :roll:

http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/003309.html
(impossible to cut & paste, so click on the link)

http://heartlesslibertarian.blogspo...sslibertarian_archive.html#110377207868335085
The next piece is what, at least here at Fort Jackson, we call "weapons immersion." This has not much to do with BRM training, and a whole lot to do with reducing Negligent Discharges (NDs.) Once upon a time, basic trainees went everywhere with their weapons once they were issued to them. Then, sometime after Vietnam, the Army became in many ways a garrison army. Weapons only come out of the arms room when necessary for training, and were turned back in when that specific training was done. Now the Army finds itself in a situation where the troops in the field take loaded weapons everywhere with them, 24/7. Loaded weapons, plus troops who aren't used to carrying them around at all times, leads to NDs. And lots of NDs mean people get shot, and killed. Last time my brigade commander briefed us, the U.S. military had lost 24 troops killed to NDs since the start of the GWOT. That's 2/3 of a line Infantry platoon gone because somebody couldn't handle a weapon safely.

The solution? Weapons immersion. Troops get issued weapons during the first week of Basic Training, and they take them everywhere. After rifle qualification, every soldier gets 5 rounds of blanks ammuntion to put in his magazine, and they lock and load whenever they leave the battalion area. (It will be interesting to see the troops on post detail raking the HQ lawn with loaded M16s.) Any ND after this point means a soldier gets immediately re-started in basic training to the start of BRM training, in order to learn proper and safe weapons handling. A side bonus to the program is that, since the troops have their rifles at all times, drill sergeants can conduct more pre-BRM training during downtime (like waiting for a bus pick-up.)
Ref. the bold highlighting - why not adopt the Brit policy of being fined one month's pay (if that still goes on)???
 
#2
I dont think we can be too complacent an awful lot of nds the first month in basra palace and a some werent just from junior blokes
good thing we have loading bays
 
#4
thing is, did the immersion training make a big difference? My Grandfather recalls the yanks NDing a great deal on market Garden etc. and i believe they were immersion trained then. Perhaps something of the "hoo-ah" psychology prelevant throughout a great deal of septics (although not all, it must be said) is responsible for their trend of shooting worm/birds/other yanks/brits etc. by accident.
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
#5
stoatman said:
......

why not adopt the Brit policy of being fined one month's pay (if that still goes on)???
Unfortunately it doesn't !

Some units did in the past have an automatic fine of one month's dosh, but not all.

It depends on the amount of jelly in the CO/OC's spine. I've seen some very low fines for NDs, and some that were just brushed under the carpet - there's also a been certain amount of favouritism iin the past too.
It seems some people think that Offrs & Snrs 'cannot' have NDs, "Bad for discipline, dontcha know" or some such similar tommyrot.

The septics have ADs - Accidental Discharges - which absolve blame from the idiot, we use the term ND which is a much better description. Personally I like the Aussie term of UD - Unauthorised Discharge :
Sgt Maj: "Who authorised you to loose that shot ?"
Utter knob: "Errr, nobody Sir/Sgt Maj."
Sgt Maj: "You're nicked son/Sgt/Sir!"
 
#7
#8
Corp' ND = Negligent Discharge. Used to be called an accidental discharge.
An enlisted man used to be automatically fined one months pay and a commissioned officer two months pay for negligently causing his weapon to be fired. Prior to the disciplinary action the armourer checked the offenders weapon to ensure it was operating correctly. (Good grief is this a segue for a host of double entendre or what)?

I recall one officer from my regiment who lost two months pay for a ND in NI, he went on to become a Major General! The fines certainly went a long way towards eliminating NDs.
 
#9
From the first post.

Negligent Discharge

Carrying your weapon 24\7 won't necessarily improve your safety drills, in fact i'd say it may contribute to the old 'familiarity breeds contempt' syndrome. Proper training, respect for weapons in general and good drills practiced so much they become automatic (which they need to be when you're completely knackered, p*ss wet through and can think of nothing else than getting your head down) are the way ahead imo.

BTW, do the yanks carry their weapons made ready out there?
 
#10
I think there is some truth in the the idea that having soldiers used to a rigid peacetime weapon safety regime not only increases the chance of a live ND, but also reduces actual combat preparedness. In UK we have even reached the daft extreme where soldiers bimble around a war zone with no mag on weapon (or even no ammo issued for that weapon!!!), because they are so indoctrinated with weapon safety.

If you have ever carried a loaded personal weapon for an extended length of time, or lived in a habitually armed society (Rhodesia, US, just about anywhere in central Africa, etc), it is very noticable that there is a lack of NDs or other weapon accidents. Same holds true for the British Army: in "my early days" I could trust my troops to go about their business in the Falklands, Kenya or whereever fully bombed-up with rounds and grenades. In Telic 1, by contrast, I was more scared of getting shot or fragged in the concentration areas by own troops unfamiliar with grenades and other munitions than I was about facing the Iraqi army - and there were plenty of accidents and near misses.

With some of the Deepcut critics seriously questioning whether young soldiers on guard should be issued nasty dangerous firearms, and the risk-averse chit-signing training culture developing in the Army, I wonder if we will in fact end up with a worse firearms accident rate due to firearms phobia.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#11
I spent my last 2 years in a COP and only recall 3 NDs whilst on ops, 1 with an LSW which was down to unfamiliarity (later proved to be a defective safety catch). 2 Unloading into a load bay with an AR15, down to extreme exhaustion after 14 days of 2 on 2 off in a 2 man op and the 3rd was with an M79 where the NCO ic let of the safety, placed it on webbing and his oppo kicked the webbing and off it went luckily not far enough to arm. The NCO was unfamiliar with shotgun type safeties and thought he was applying it when he was in fact pushing it of. The Artic trigger guard button caught on the web set and when the Private stretched his legs off it went. No prizes for guessing who took the blame. That said these were all I remember from 2 years working with 3 COPs including marines who tended to take everything out available and everything was always loaded and made ready.
Oddly enough none were mine!
 
#12
Seem to remember visiting an septic camp in Bos, finding the usual half-oil-drum outside the cookhouse for unloading.

Only a few brits on camp, and they said they always run to get to the front of the queue for scoff. Found out the reason v quickly.

We were about 5th in the queue, first septic goes up to the oil drum, removes pistol from holster, removes magazine and squeezes trigger!! Shrugs, puts mag BACK ON, and re-holsters!!

Apparently, (although didn't see this), one young septic turned up, points M16 into oil drum, and sqeezes trigger (BANG). So takes off mag and squeezes trigger again (BANG)! Looks around to see if anyone watching, slings his rifle and saunters off!!!!

Septics - Weapon Handling - These words should ALWAYS be followed by the phrase "What skills?"

Ghost :)
 
#13
Talking of Bosnia, in Sipovo 96, a group of spams were dropped off by heli, went to unloading bay and one promptly ND'd into a muckers chest. Luckily for them they were 100m from 2AFA.
 
#15
As other posts have mentioned, ISTR there was a period in Bosnia 1996 when our allies had one ND after another. Including a USN sircraft dropping a live HE bomb close to Camp McGovern.

In another theatre with featureless terrain, the old "back-bearing" trick produced a couple of rounds of 155mm close to their Corps Arty HQ.
 
#16
Cutaway said:
stoatman said:
......

why not adopt the Brit policy of being fined one month's pay (if that still goes on)???
Unfortunately it doesn't !

Some units did in the past have an automatic fine of one month's dosh, but not all.

It depends on the amount of jelly in the CO/OC's spine. I've seen some very low fines for NDs, and some that were just brushed under the carpet - there's also a been certain amount of favouritism iin the past too.
It seems some people think that Offrs & Snrs 'cannot' have NDs, "Bad for discipline, dontcha know" or some such similar tommyrot.

The septics have ADs - Accidental Discharges - which absolve blame from the idiot, we use the term ND which is a much better description. Personally I like the Aussie term of UD - Unauthorised Discharge :
Sgt Maj: "Who authorised you to loose that shot ?"
Utter knob: "Errr, nobody Sir/Sgt Maj."
Sgt Maj: "You're nicked son/Sgt/Sir!"
Old distinction between ND and AD was that ND was reported if soldier's unloading/safety drills were defective. AD was where the unloading was OK but some mechanical defect meant that weapon was not 'safe' despite the unloading being OK. Way way back lots of blokes died when sitting in rear of a vehicle with Sten between knees pointing up. Truck went over bump, butt struck truck floor, fired round through head of bloke hunched over it.
 
#17
Yes but how to get away with it?

Doing a 'Site Guard' in 80 we were told that if you had a ND , fire a few more aimed shots at a tree . Call for the QRF as you had seen a SOXMIS type bloke.

As it was not a ND but several aimes shots you could not get fined...

Sig Smith found out the hard way you can.
 

chimera

LE
Moderator
#18
To go back to the original thread of 'weapon immersion' training. In NI the most common weapon for NDs was always the 9mm Browning. There were a couple of NI training courses in which the students signed out said weapon on Day 1, and then carried it made ready with blank round for the whole course. Loading and unloading for meals, etc. We found that familiarity certainly did not breed contempt, but total confidence in your own (and everyone else's) safety.
 
E

error_unknown

Guest
#19
chimera said:
To go back to the original thread of 'weapon immersion' training. In NI the most common weapon for NDs was always the 9mm Browning. There were a couple of NI training courses in which the students signed out said weapon on Day 1, and then carried it made ready with blank round for the whole course. Loading and unloading for meals, etc. We found that familiarity certainly did not breed contempt, but total confidence in your own (and everyone else's) safety.
Yes, quite right Chimera: weapon immersion training was a very good idea though the first time I did it, it felt odd to be sitting in a pub in Ashford or Folkestone with a loaded weapon.

Going on to Spam weapon handling: I've seen some shi-ite drills and errors, but remember that many Spams have been around firearms practically since birth and some of them are superb marksmen.
 
#20
This from 'Cooper's Commentaries', a regular column by Col. Jeff Cooper, (retd) USMC; a shootist of great renown and originator of the term 'hoplophobe';

Field reports from Iraq reveal such miserable gunhandling that we must ask ourselves about what amounts to social degeneration. Throughout the 20th century we Americans have had occasion to handle literally millions of smallarms, and we did so largely without mishaps. The only case I ran across in my entire service was judged by a court of inquiry to be a self-inflicted wound, rather than a negligent discharge. Now we find ourselves confronted with huge numbers of young men who do not seem to be able to keep finger off trigger, or to keep firearms properly pointed. Can television be the cause of this, or is it the deliberate, intentional gelding of the young American male? A boy should be taught proper gunhandling by his father. If he has no father, this is difficult. Possibly in a two-income family there is no time for fathers properly to educate sons. Education is what you get at home - what you get, or should get, at school is training. What seems to have developed is a culture in which the fathers have no fathers, and this is a tough one to remedy - tougher in the face of urbanized hoplophobia.

http://www.jpate.freeserve.co.uk/JeffCooper/
VOL 11 No.6

So the urban wimp factor is at work in spamland too.
My father taught me safe gunhandling, from the age of eight years, although it was another four years before he allowed me to go shooting on my own account; nowadays he'd be jailed as an irresponsible parent!
In the 50 years since I've never had an ND, despite handling and using a wide variety of different firearms under all sorts of conditions.
As the Colonel says, the only reliable safety catch is the one between your ears!
 

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