Spams indulging in Weapons Immersion training

Discussion in 'Weapons, Equipment & Rations' started by stoatman, Dec 31, 2004.

  1. Should really, finally, learn the difference between their rifles and their guns rather than just si

  2. Leaves a little to be desired

  3. They're rather competent fellows, actually!

  4. Cack...


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  1. ...because of a certain endemic problem involving NDs... :roll:
    (impossible to cut & paste, so click on the link)
    Ref. the bold highlighting - why not adopt the Brit policy of being fined one month's pay (if that still goes on)???
  2. I dont think we can be too complacent an awful lot of nds the first month in basra palace and a some werent just from junior blokes
    good thing we have loading bays
  3. "shortest ranges in NATO"

  4. thing is, did the immersion training make a big difference? My Grandfather recalls the yanks NDing a great deal on market Garden etc. and i believe they were immersion trained then. Perhaps something of the "hoo-ah" psychology prelevant throughout a great deal of septics (although not all, it must be said) is responsible for their trend of shooting worm/birds/other yanks/brits etc. by accident.
  5. Cutaway

    Cutaway LE Reviewer

    Unfortunately it doesn't !

    Some units did in the past have an automatic fine of one month's dosh, but not all.

    It depends on the amount of jelly in the CO/OC's spine. I've seen some very low fines for NDs, and some that were just brushed under the carpet - there's also a been certain amount of favouritism iin the past too.
    It seems some people think that Offrs & Snrs 'cannot' have NDs, "Bad for discipline, dontcha know" or some such similar tommyrot.

    The septics have ADs - Accidental Discharges - which absolve blame from the idiot, we use the term ND which is a much better description. Personally I like the Aussie term of UD - Unauthorised Discharge :
    Sgt Maj: "Who authorised you to loose that shot ?"
    Utter knob: "Errr, nobody Sir/Sgt Maj."
    Sgt Maj: "You're nicked son/Sgt/Sir!"
  6. Pardon my ignorance, but what does "ND" stand for? I'm guessing "Non-authorised Discharge".
  7. Corp' ND = Negligent Discharge. Used to be called an accidental discharge.
    An enlisted man used to be automatically fined one months pay and a commissioned officer two months pay for negligently causing his weapon to be fired. Prior to the disciplinary action the armourer checked the offenders weapon to ensure it was operating correctly. (Good grief is this a segue for a host of double entendre or what)?

    I recall one officer from my regiment who lost two months pay for a ND in NI, he went on to become a Major General! The fines certainly went a long way towards eliminating NDs.
  8. From the first post.

    Carrying your weapon 24\7 won't necessarily improve your safety drills, in fact i'd say it may contribute to the old 'familiarity breeds contempt' syndrome. Proper training, respect for weapons in general and good drills practiced so much they become automatic (which they need to be when you're completely knackered, p*ss wet through and can think of nothing else than getting your head down) are the way ahead imo.

    BTW, do the yanks carry their weapons made ready out there?
  9. I think there is some truth in the the idea that having soldiers used to a rigid peacetime weapon safety regime not only increases the chance of a live ND, but also reduces actual combat preparedness. In UK we have even reached the daft extreme where soldiers bimble around a war zone with no mag on weapon (or even no ammo issued for that weapon!!!), because they are so indoctrinated with weapon safety.

    If you have ever carried a loaded personal weapon for an extended length of time, or lived in a habitually armed society (Rhodesia, US, just about anywhere in central Africa, etc), it is very noticable that there is a lack of NDs or other weapon accidents. Same holds true for the British Army: in "my early days" I could trust my troops to go about their business in the Falklands, Kenya or whereever fully bombed-up with rounds and grenades. In Telic 1, by contrast, I was more scared of getting shot or fragged in the concentration areas by own troops unfamiliar with grenades and other munitions than I was about facing the Iraqi army - and there were plenty of accidents and near misses.

    With some of the Deepcut critics seriously questioning whether young soldiers on guard should be issued nasty dangerous firearms, and the risk-averse chit-signing training culture developing in the Army, I wonder if we will in fact end up with a worse firearms accident rate due to firearms phobia.
  10. ugly

    ugly LE Moderator

    I spent my last 2 years in a COP and only recall 3 NDs whilst on ops, 1 with an LSW which was down to unfamiliarity (later proved to be a defective safety catch). 2 Unloading into a load bay with an AR15, down to extreme exhaustion after 14 days of 2 on 2 off in a 2 man op and the 3rd was with an M79 where the NCO ic let of the safety, placed it on webbing and his oppo kicked the webbing and off it went luckily not far enough to arm. The NCO was unfamiliar with shotgun type safeties and thought he was applying it when he was in fact pushing it of. The Artic trigger guard button caught on the web set and when the Private stretched his legs off it went. No prizes for guessing who took the blame. That said these were all I remember from 2 years working with 3 COPs including marines who tended to take everything out available and everything was always loaded and made ready.
    Oddly enough none were mine!
  11. Seem to remember visiting an septic camp in Bos, finding the usual half-oil-drum outside the cookhouse for unloading.

    Only a few brits on camp, and they said they always run to get to the front of the queue for scoff. Found out the reason v quickly.

    We were about 5th in the queue, first septic goes up to the oil drum, removes pistol from holster, removes magazine and squeezes trigger!! Shrugs, puts mag BACK ON, and re-holsters!!

    Apparently, (although didn't see this), one young septic turned up, points M16 into oil drum, and sqeezes trigger (BANG). So takes off mag and squeezes trigger again (BANG)! Looks around to see if anyone watching, slings his rifle and saunters off!!!!

    Septics - Weapon Handling - These words should ALWAYS be followed by the phrase "What skills?"

    Ghost :)
  12. Talking of Bosnia, in Sipovo 96, a group of spams were dropped off by heli, went to unloading bay and one promptly ND'd into a muckers chest. Luckily for them they were 100m from 2AFA.
  13. Or perhaps, unluckily for them!! :D
  14. As other posts have mentioned, ISTR there was a period in Bosnia 1996 when our allies had one ND after another. Including a USN sircraft dropping a live HE bomb close to Camp McGovern.

    In another theatre with featureless terrain, the old "back-bearing" trick produced a couple of rounds of 155mm close to their Corps Arty HQ.