Some of the wider implications of the foxhunting ban

#1
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/....xml&sSheet=/opinion/2005/02/18/ixoplead.html

Britain is better as a country of few laws
(Filed: 18/02/2005)

It would be odd if the members of the Blencathra, Quorn and Royal Artillery hunts, who are interviewed elsewhere in today's paper, were not distraught at a ban on an activity that, for many of them, defines their lives.

But why should the rest of us, who may never have sat on a horse, let alone have chased after a fox, care?

The hunting of foxes is undeniably cruel, notwithstanding the fact that other forms of vermin control can be just as cruel, or even more so. The fox may not be torn to death by the hounds; it is killed, and then it is torn apart. It is undeniable, too, that members of hunts and hunt followers take great pleasure - if not in the kill itself - in the search for and chase of the fox.

It is understandable, then, that many will find this pleasure in cruelty abominable. But it is a great leap from finding something that another does abominable to insisting that the person should be banned from doing it.

Once you accept the equation between disapproval and a ban, there is no reason why fishing and shooting should not also be illegal. There is also no reason why any activity that annoys enough people - standing on the wrong side of the escalator, chewing gum, loud phone conversations on the 17.02 from Waterloo - should not be made a criminal offence.

That is why the hunting ban is worrying. The debate has been portrayed as one between town and country, when in fact it is a battle between libertarians and those who want to control other people's lives.

It is not for the Government to convert the cries of the controllers into law; British governments have instead tended to the libertarian over the centuries. That is why, in the past, we used to be a country of few laws that are well observed, as opposed to one with many laws that are ignored.

That tradition is now changing, with 1,000 new criminal offences having been created since Labour took office in 1997. There should be an overwhelming reason to add hunting - an activity that harms no human beings, that beautifies and benefits the country, that brings employment to thousands - to that list of offences.

It is said that the Prime Minister was against a ban, but was bumped into it as a sop to his backbenchers. That does not constitute an overwhelming reason for this most anti-libertarian of laws.
 
#2
Totally agree but lets not forget that the electorate deserves the government it gets. The British people voted these scum in so we cannot be surprised if this happens we all know Labours form. Labour have always been good at motivating their activists (public sector workers mostly and dossers) they will vote and campaign for the party. The truth is the rest of us dont bother, just take a look at the alternative 8O

As that sh1te bag Tony Banks MP was heard to mutter "this is revenge for the miners"
 

BuggerAll

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#3
The ban on foxhunting is Labours greatest achievment according to 2 Jags. 1 up for the miners accordiing to the beast of Bolsover. Says all you really neeed to know about the New Labour project. All they have succeded in doing is persecute a minority they don't like - just wait until the rest of us are in thier firing line.

Bugger, I forgot we are!
 
#4
This just sums up labours approach to government. If someone doesn't approve of something and makes it known loudly enough, the government will ban it. Bring back laissez faire!

A_S
 
#5
Vonshot said:
Totally agree but lets not forget that the electorate deserves the government it gets. The British people voted these scum in
Don't be too harsh on hese voters. Half of them vote just as their fathers did. The balance think that manifesto "promises" will come true. All of them are betrayed when the robbers get in and promptly run things to their own agenda.
 
E

error_unknown

Guest
#6
It's actually a sign of decadence. We are the longest established liberal democracy and the major issues which still face the majority of countries have been addressed and, if not necessarily solved, a workable approach has been achieved. But our political class is self-perpetuating and is not prepared to slim itself down - in fact we seem to be desperate to create more and more (and more and more expensive) levels of government to deal with problems that are essentially technical and managerial. The consequence of this is a class of politician with a good deal of time on their hands, a hugely inflated view of their own importance and an urge to do something which makes them look worthwhile: hence masses of legislation to regulate areas which are not actually problematic.

I could go on: personally I suspect that there is a subconscious agenda to suppress activities which are expressive of individual freedom and independence, like hunting, shooting and fishing, because their afficionadoes tend not to be the weak, feminised, jellyfish who positively welcome dependence on the state, and who therefore don't mind an army of social workers, council officers and health service goons to nanny them around.

What we need is a good big war of attrition, with 'Pals' battalions' of chavs, social workers, schoolteachers and college lecturers being sent over the top against impossible odds, on the promise that their self-sacrifice will shorten waiting lists for verruca treatment for OAPs.

There isn't enough social-Darwinism these days. :D
 
#7
and the Torys are so much better (':cry:')
this whole farce is set to roll on and on the law as it stands is so well written you could roll regiments of challengers through it without anyone noticeing.
Its the British weird love of animals thats to blame anywhere else in europe hunting is an at least tolerated sport if not popular.
But them hunting isn't as an exclusive sport as it is over here.
The enclosure act forcing the working class into towns and getting rid of most
farm labourers making shooting "rights " very expensive etc etc .
Situation vast majority of the population have never hunted know nobody who hunts and care not a whit.
I certainly have nothing in common with the countryside alliance still think the whole things a massive waste of time but does take a lot of wannabe ananchists out of town centres at the weekend who will be forced into egging on the police for a change I love irony(':twisted:')
 
#8
Perhaps the most worrying political aspect of the ban (apart from the prioritisation of parliamentary time for the hunting debate in preference to 3 timetabled debates on pensions, health service and education,) is the disregard for the concept of informed opinion. It staggers me that our supposed educated political elite have the arrogance to pass judgement on a subject of which they know nothing.

It may be true that the majority of people in this country favour a ban on hunting, but the vast majority of people in this country are ill educated on the subject. The vast majority of people who are educated on the subject realise the necessity and benefit of it.

One of the functions of government in a parliamentary democracy is to listen to educated opinion and then for politicians to form their own EDUCATED opinion and use that to debate on policy. This avoids mob rule and oppression of minorities by the masses.

Sadly in this case politicians have shown a breathtaking arrogance and allowed themselves to govern using opinions formed from their own prejudice, ignoring the few lone voices of reason of those dilligent enough to make the effort to inform themselves on the subject (Hoey etc.). This whole sorry episode has severely shaken my faith in the parliamentary democracy of this country.

Despite not being a hunting man myself I will be lending my support on Saturday watching those who know and love their sport head out as they have done for centuries and I urge all those with a concern for the future of our democracy to do the same.
 
#9
At the end of the day Labour are still a socialist movement. They may not say "Comrade" at the end of the party conference but there are still many people who will do. This bunch of crooks, nepotists and fair weather feckers need to be shown the door - somehow - or it'll just get worse.
 
#10
I don't actaully think there's any need for fox hunting as a vermin control policy its rubbish most foxes are shot well actually most are hit by cars then shooting then snaring and then way down the list is hunting.
that does'nt mean it should be banned.
 
#11
It is worrying to see the lenghts to which a governing party will go in pursuit of an agenda driven by little more than spite, envy, class hatred and ignorance. So what if hunting is 'exclusive' or 'élitist' (which it is not in reality) - these are not terms which I for one shy away from. What right has any government to legislate as to how a social group behaves, most notably when that behaviour impinges upon no one, and does an awful lot of good? - for country communities, for rural businesses, for British heritage. Hunting only inconveniences the fox, and that bushy tailed little sod is widely regarded as vermin by those in the know. However, your New Labour class warrior goes apoplectic when he sees some double-barrelled 'toff' having fun and thinks to himself 'I have hated and envied you and your class for centuries, and now I am in a position to destroy one of the few pastimes left to you and your people. I have no time for the countryside and even less understanding of it, so I can do this without any thought of the consequences. I see you and your chums having fun, without any involvement from the nanny-state, and I hate you for it. I have no understanding or appreciation of tradition or heritage, and regard these things as absurd or dangerous. I see the hunting fraternity enjoying themselves and I become blind with envy and spite because I know that my own overwhelming sense of inferiority coupled with a virulent class hatred means that it is a sacred duty for me to ensure that I destroy this ancient pastime - let the heavens fall, let the country grind to a halt, but I will stop you. What do these hunting types think they are...free?'
 
#12
gallowglass said:
It is worrying to see the lenghts to which a governing party will go in pursuit of an agenda driven by little more than spite, envy, class hatred and ignorance. So what if hunting is 'exclusive' or 'élitist' (which it is not in reality) - these are not terms which I for one shy away from. What right has any government to legislate as to how a social group behaves, most notably when that behaviour impinges upon no one, and does an awful lot of good? - for country communities, for rural businesses, for British heritage. Hunting only inconveniences the fox, and that bushy tailed little sod is widely regarded as vermin by those in the know. However, your New Labour class warrior goes apoplectic when he sees some double-barrelled 'toff' having fun and thinks to himself 'I have hated and envied you and your class for centuries, and now I am in a position to destroy one of the few pastimes left to you and your people. I have no time for the countryside and even less understanding of it, so I can do this without any thought of the consequences. I see you and your chums having fun, without any involvement from the nanny-state, and I hate you for it. I have no understanding or appreciation of tradition or heritage, and regard these things as absurd or dangerous. I see the hunting fraternity enjoying themselves and I become blind with envy and spite because I know that my own overwhelming sense of inferiority coupled with a virulent class hatred means that it is a sacred duty for me to ensure that I destroy this ancient pastime - let the heavens fall, let the country grind to a halt, but I will stop you. What do these hunting types think they are...free?'
Exactly right GG. What concerns as much if not more is that I trout fish when I can afford it alongside my local "Private" fishery there is a "Private" course fishery, this sport is the next one to go under the auspeces(?) of cruelty to animals but what you have said above gives the true reason.

JJ
 
#13
The majority of people in the UK favour hanging for murder etc. Interesting that the logic - the majority of people are in favour of banning foxhunting, therefore it's the government's responsibility to ban it - doesn't apply to murderers.
 
#14
Most people I know who are working class Labour supporters (Myself included) couldn't really give a toss about hunting with hounds, It doesn't really grip my sh!t.
I really look at this ban as a waste of time and effort. Something that the rozzers won't do sod all about, after all there’s far more important thing to worry about.
 
#15
hup-two-three said:
The majority of people in the UK favour hanging for murder etc. Interesting that the logic - the majority of people are in favour of banning foxhunting, therefore it's the government's responsibility to ban it - doesn't apply to murderers.
Murderers are class allies, and foxhunters are class enemies! Haven't you read your Lenin??? :twisted:

(if you think I'm joking, read "The Gulag Archipelago" which describes the Soviet "justice" system very well - thiever & murderers were treated as class allies & got very short sentances, whilst making a comment which went against the party line could get you between 10 and 25 years)
 
#16
hup-two-three said:
The majority of people in the UK favour hanging for murder etc. Interesting that the logic - the majority of people are in favour of banning foxhunting, therefore it's the government's responsibility to ban it - doesn't apply to murderers.
Exactly my point; the government feels that while the majority of the population favour hanging, this is an ill-informed opinion and therefore resist passing the relevant legislation. Unfortunately they are happy to follow the ill-informed opinion of the majority of the population on foxhunting.
 
#17
Cpl_ripper said:
Most people I know who are working class Labour supporters (Myself included) couldn't really give a toss about hunting with hounds, It doesn't really grip my sh!t.
I really look at this ban as a waste of time and effort. Something that the rozzers won't do sod all about, after all there’s far more important thing to worry about.

I'm not sure what 'working class' really means, since many people who profess to belong to it are not, in fact, working, whilst many of them are actually rather well off. I think you really mean 'lower class'.

The fact is that you are probably right; most of the plebs (and the MPs who represent them) understand neither rural affairs in general nor hunting in particular, and do not care about the countryside - it's where they go to fly-tip. However, they have traditionally never allowed the facts to stand in the way of their prejudices.

That said, the law's the law, but presumably the police will prioritise enforcement of this ludicrous legislation appropriately, so we can expect hunters to be arrested only when burglars fear to ply their trade, drugs are no longer imported or sold, all the uninsured and disqualified drivers have been taken off the roads and town centres are peaceful places at 0200 on Friday and Saturday.

In reality, I suspect the police will find that attempting to enforce the ban will open a Pandora's box for them (and the Home Office). If they put resources into pursuing people for hunting, they will have to explain their many signal failures to provide effective policing of the countryside for the last few years - in particular, their failure to deal with illegal raves; their failure to deal with illegal hare coursing, their failure to deal with farm robberies, and so on.
 
#18
VB has hit the nail on the head with the "working class" bullsh*t.

what grips my sh*t is some sanctimonous t*sser saying this is what the working class stands for. B*llocks. which sections of the working class are you referring to. Not me or people i grew up with.

Ever go to the dogs or see what happens at the Waterloo Cup? Ever seen the Hunts that are organised and manned by Mininig communities. Ever been to The Grand National or Cheltenham. Who do you find in the stands, yelling the loudest. it ain't Rupert!

The Labour party seems to broken into two sections:

One: The Tofts - A Bliar, Mandelson, Straw, Falkner, Foot, Benn - individuals who have never worked a day in their life, bleating on about the working man! Determined to make the whole country as miserable as themselves.

Second: The Unionist - Prescott, The Beast, McNamara, errr, that seems to be it nowadays! But at least these guys don't hide their agendas and are blatantly honest about what they believe in, hence why hardly any of them are in the Cabinet.

This ban is about some perverse sense of revenge, but i can't really be sure for what, since the b*stard most responsible for the c*ck up that was the strikes is that c*nt Scargill
 
#19
possibly more to do with our weird relantionship with animals go anywhere in europe cyprus greece spain theres some mad english woman trying to save animals while the locals don't give a shit.
we are the only country with a wannabe terrorist organisation thats prepared to kill for fluffy bunnys(':('). one person has starved themselves to death for animals given that sort of minority about of course labour was going to ban hunting lots of cash behind it
(':cry:')
Crying or Very sad
 
#20
possibly more to do with our weird relantionship with animals go anywhere in europe cyprus greece spain theres some mad english woman trying to save animals while the locals don't give a shit.
we are the only country with a wannabe terrorist organisation thats prepared to kill for fluffy bunnys(':('). one person has starved themselves to death for animals given that sort of minority about of course labour was going to ban hunting lots of cash behind it
(':cry:')
Crying or Very sad
although being cynical bastards thought they could have some cash and get away with out doing anything relying on the lords to balls the whole thing up Tonys plan was to get it licened so it could carry on as normal
 

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