Socialism in the UK

#1
Recently I've become pretty annoyed at my own country.

I often wonder why the feck I'm joining up later this month as our country goes down an incredible socialist route.

http://www.pfc.org.uk/node/821

Here you've got some gender confused tranny's getting their sex change free off the NHS. What next? Like in that South Park episode - if I suddenly want to become a dolphin will the tax payers of this country foot the bill so I can have a "fish-plasti" because it's my human right to want to look and feel like a fish?

I could go on about how being a single mum has become a legitimate and lucrative career.....but I'm too ferked off!! :x
 
#2
So how is that Socialism?

MsG
 
#3
SocialismEDITED FOR BETTER DEFINITION

An economic system in which the basic means of production are primarily owned and controlled collectively, usually by government under some system of central planning.

I think that pretty much describes our NHS.
 
#4
Ummm I hate socialism as much as the next sensible and sane person but since when was the NHS a 'basic means of production'?!
 
#5
It's basic as it's health care and therefore in our economic system will be the majorities decision to use and we all have to make mandatory contributions toward it.

If the NHS isn't based on a socialist ideal then please explain how it isn't?
(That isn't sarcastic at all by the way, if you can genuinely explain if and how it isn't a socialist ideal I would like to know :p )

EDITED TO ADD A LITTLE LINKY
 
#6
Perhaps liberalism may have been a better word. The idea seems to be that a liberal society is more open, receptive to new ideas and innovation, and hence more productive. The down side is that politicians can come up with some really odd ideas about what to spend our money on, not to mention a relaxation of law and order.
You may find the armed forces are surprisingly socialist insofar as those in charge have a duty to care for those at the bottom of the heap, although this may be obscured by the hurly-burly of recruit training followed by an active service posting. Once you have time to draw breath, though, you may be pleasantly surprised.
If you concentrate on carving yourself a decent career you should be OK. Your point is a good one, though. You want to be proud of the nation you represent. Good luck in your career.
 

Auld-Yin

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#7
CarpeDiem said:
Ummm I hate socialism as much as the next sensible and sane person but since when was the NHS a 'basic means of production'?!
Maternity wards? :D
 
#8
Olympius said:
Recently I've become pretty annoyed at my own country.

I often wonder why the feck I'm joining up later this month as our country goes down an incredible socialist route.

http://www.pfc.org.uk/node/821

Here you've got some gender confused tranny's getting their sex change free off the NHS. What next? Like in that South Park episode - if I suddenly want to become a dolphin will the tax payers of this country foot the bill so I can have a "fish-plasti" because it's my human right to want to look and feel like a fish?

I could go on about how being a single mum has become a legitimate and lucrative career.....but I'm too ferked off!! :x
Look at the date of the article.
 
#9
Olympius said:
SocialismEDITED FOR BETTER DEFINITION

An economic system in which the basic means of production are primarily owned and controlled collectively, usually by government under some system of central planning.

I think that pretty much describes our NHS.
I don't think so, but what it describes to a "T" is State Capitalism.

MsG
 
#10
Olympius said:
Recently I've become pretty annoyed at my own country.

I often wonder why the feck I'm joining up later this month as our country goes down an incredible socialist route.

http://www.pfc.org.uk/node/821

Here you've got some gender confused tranny's getting their sex change free off the NHS. What next? Like in that South Park episode - if I suddenly want to become a dolphin will the tax payers of this country foot the bill so I can have a "fish-plasti" because it's my human right to want to look and feel like a fish?

I could go on about how being a single mum has become a legitimate and lucrative career.....but I'm too ferked off!! :x
Your points are well taken and represent the thinking of a lot of us in America as we contemplate going down some of the same roads the UK has.
 
#11
jumpinjarhead said:
Olympius said:
Recently I've become pretty annoyed at my own country.

I often wonder why the feck I'm joining up later this month as our country goes down an incredible socialist route.

http://www.pfc.org.uk/node/821

Here you've got some gender confused tranny's getting their sex change free off the NHS. What next? Like in that South Park episode - if I suddenly want to become a dolphin will the tax payers of this country foot the bill so I can have a "fish-plasti" because it's my human right to want to look and feel like a fish?

I could go on about how being a single mum has become a legitimate and lucrative career.....but I'm too ferked off!! :x
Your points are well taken and represent the thinking of a lot of us in America as we contemplate going down some of the same roads the UK has.
I believe that all the negativity generated in the US against a national medical system is very misguided.

There are some really switched-on fellasses and fellas there, and it shouldn't be beyond their capabilities to minutely analyse the various national systems extant in the world and only take the best from each to arrive at an optimised solution. The only thing that's stopping that is the very influential lobby of the present cash-grabbing health-insurance companies.

MsG
 
#12
I wondered how long it would take Bugsy to wade in with his 'everybody else should pay except me argument'. Socialists, they're just great, with other peoples money :roll:

Awaiting word jokes extrodinaire in reply.......
 

maguire

LE
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#13
you must have been looking pretty hard to get that wound up over a ten year old news story.
 
#14
Bugsy said:
jumpinjarhead said:
Olympius said:
Recently I've become pretty annoyed at my own country.

I often wonder why the feck I'm joining up later this month as our country goes down an incredible socialist route.

http://www.pfc.org.uk/node/821

Here you've got some gender confused tranny's getting their sex change free off the NHS. What next? Like in that South Park episode - if I suddenly want to become a dolphin will the tax payers of this country foot the bill so I can have a "fish-plasti" because it's my human right to want to look and feel like a fish?

I could go on about how being a single mum has become a legitimate and lucrative career.....but I'm too ferked off!! :x
Your points are well taken and represent the thinking of a lot of us in America as we contemplate going down some of the same roads the UK has.
I believe that all the negativity generated in the US against a national medical system is very misguided.

There are some really switched-on fellasses and fellas there, and it shouldn't be beyond their capabilities to minutely analyse the various national systems extant in the world and only take the best from each to arrive at an optimised solution. The only thing that's stopping that is the very influential lobby of the present cash-grabbing health-insurance companies.

MsG
I agree in general. I and many others here definitely think the system needs repair (such as portability throughout US, a re-insurance pool for pre-existing conditions, and tort reform to put a cap on excessive punitive damage awards) we just don't have confidence in our government to be directly involved.

The instances where the federal government has provided health care do not engender confidence--our Veterans Administration system is an embarrassment and Medicare is riddled with fraud, waste and abuse. As I have said elsewhere on the forums, those in the US who use NHS or the equivalents in Canada, France etc. to try to make their point against our government taking over health care go too far I think and also such comparisons are misleading since the societies and traditions between the countries are different.
 
#15
jumpinjarhead said:
Olympius said:
Recently I've become pretty annoyed at my own country.

I often wonder why the feck I'm joining up later this month as our country goes down an incredible socialist route.

http://www.pfc.org.uk/node/821

Here you've got some gender confused tranny's getting their sex change free off the NHS. What next? Like in that South Park episode - if I suddenly want to become a dolphin will the tax payers of this country foot the bill so I can have a "fish-plasti" because it's my human right to want to look and feel like a fish?

I could go on about how being a single mum has become a legitimate and lucrative career.....but I'm too ferked off!! :x
Your points are well taken and represent the thinking of a lot of us in America as we contemplate going down some of the same roads the UK has.
The vast majority of UK tax payers support having the NHS. Don't confuse objections to specific treatments as = to objections of having a NHS. They are not the same.

To flip a point. I suspect that Prof Hawking wold have died young if he was a poor citizen of the USA.

My current G/F is a citizen of California. She has recently been treated by the the NHS for some infection. This had her bedridden for 2 weeks. She is between jobs, this would have bankrupted her if it had happened in California.

I must add that I object to elective treatment on the NHS.
 
#16
I support the NHS.....But some gender confused ejit should not be on our tax payers bank roll. And yeah I shouldn't be this wound up by a 10 year old article but you gotta vent the frustation somehow!! Otherwise I'd go postal!! lmao

I was in California and I remember queing behind a woman that couldn't afford $47 dollars for her sons inhaler. She was about to walk out of the shop muttering how she hoped her son wouldn't have an attack between now and pay day. So appalled was I that I brought out my wallet and handed her 50 on the spot and couldn't drink beer that weekend :(

The US needs reform because what it has at the moment is abhorrent....the UK needs reform as well because it's not as good as Norways, Swedens or Frances system.
 
#17
jumpinjarhead said:
I agree in general. I and many others here definitely think the system needs repair (such as portability throughout US, a re-insurance pool for pre-existing conditions, and tort reform to put a cap on excessive punitive damage awards) we just don't have confidence in our government to be directly involved.

The instances where the federal government has provided health care do not engender confidence--our Veterans Administration system is an embarrassment and Medicare is riddled with fraud, waste and abuse. As I have said elsewhere on the forums, those in the US who use NHS or the equivalents in Canada, France etc. to try to make their point against our government taking over health care go too far I think and also such comparisons are misleading since the societies and traditions between the countries are different.
I believe it would be a grave mistake to leave a nationalised health system in the US in the hands of the gobment. They've proved on more than one occasion that they're not able to administrate such large projects, which, in my opinion, is because the sheer size reduces patients to abstract administrative acts, instead of human beings with health problems. If the nationalised health system in the US was given over to the individual states, I think that would be a much better proposition. Of course, as you rightly say, there would have to be a transference option from state to state, and also a general pool to subsidise the poorer states. The advantages are that the states could dictate the prices of medication, instead of individuals having to pay prices way above the market value, and, most importantly, healthcare would be removed as a financial commodity from the market.

It never fails to astonish me that folks don’t see the obvious contradiction in trying to gain maximum profit from something as fundamental as healthcare.

Ord_Sgt said:
I wondered how long it would take Bugsy to wade in with his 'everybody else should pay except me argument'. Socialists, they're just great, with other peoples money :roll:

Awaiting word jokes extrodinaire in reply.......
And I wondered how long it would take you to show up to get your usual licks in at Bugsy, but (predictably) fail to contribute anything to the thread subject.

Anyway, Odd_Sarge, I’m still a Mick, still a Socialist, still an Irish Republican, still very happily married to my gorgeous Italian wife, still living very comfortably indeed and still having a good giggle every time you bite. Ho vinto di nuovo, vecchio:D :D :D

MsG
 
#18
Bugsy said:
I believe it would be a grave mistake to leave a nationalised health system in the US in the hands of the gobment. They've proved on more than one occasion that they're not able to administrate such large projects, which, in my opinion, is because the sheer size reduces patients to abstract administrative acts, instead of human beings with health problems. If the nationalised health system in the US was given over to the individual states, I think that would be a much better proposition. Of course, as you rightly say, there would have to be a transference option from state to state, and also a general pool to subsidise the poorer states. The advantages are that the states could dictate the prices of medication, instead of individuals having to pay prices way above the market value, and, most importantly, healthcare would be removed as a financial commodity from the market.


Anyway, Odd_Sarge, I’m still a Mick, still a Socialist, still an Irish Republican, still very happily married to my gorgeous Italian wife, still living very comfortably indeed and still having a good giggle every time you bite. Ho vinto di nuovo, vecchio:D :D :D

MsG
Well said. If you weren't so obviously well esconced I would ask you to come to the US and go on tour to talk some sense into my countrymen that seem so hellbent on getting government health care!
 
#19
Olympius said:
Recently I've become pretty annoyed at my own country.

I often wonder why the feck I'm joining up later this month as our country goes down an incredible socialist route.
...
You might have a point if you were writing in 48. The UK actually drifted pretty far to the right set in a European context. Only N.I. with its thickly spread government, tiny private sector and energetic sponging off the English tax payer could be said to be headed towards a shrikers paradise.

Compared with the US of course Britain is an Anarcho-Syndicalist commune. Like Ireland it's now clearly an incompetently led neo-liberal country still clutching Thatcherite delusions like a ragged comfort blanket.

I'd agree the NHS is a Socialist idea. A rare example of a British government embracing a truly radically idea. It probably only could have happened in the wake of the population all pulling together in WWII.

I worked for the NHS in the 70s. It actually worked pretty well until private industry management consultants got their hands on it. The lairs of management they grafted on did much to undermine it. Like most large British institutions both private and public the degree of officious, arse covering, bumf production is staggering and the leadership is 3rd rate.

Its now under huge demographic pressure as the boomers get their pension books. Compared with other 1st world health systems it is simply chronically underfunded. As with defense Brits simply aren't willing to stump up the sort of cash the French do. It is the Snatch Landrover of health care.

Despite this according to any poll I've ever seen- and again like the Army- the NHS remains a very popular institution with the British electorate, especially with the elderly. That's why the Tory front bench is currently at pains to pose as guardians of this rather radical innovation.
 
#20
If some nutjob in the NHS decides it's ok for another nutjob to get a sex change or whatever, it's absolute eff all to do with socialism. If anything it's hard-core liberalism, where anything goes. Either way you can't blame a socio-economic and political system for that crazy situation any more than you can blame capitalism for boob jobs through BUPA. It's culture not politics.

People complain about the NHS being socialist but of course it's socialist - it's a collective asset that is used to deliver health care to everyone regardless of how rich or poor they are. Surely if only the rich can afford health care then that's a pretty bad state of affairs?

If you or a close member of your family was badly ill, would you really prefer to rely on the "get well soon, as long as you can afford to" principle? The NHS was founded on those principles or do you think they have only become socialist since, like everyone else, you became completely selfish and obsessed with everyone else getting something that you haven't been given...YET. But you will become ill, as we all will, and you'll realise that the creation of the NHS is one of the best things our country has ever achieved.
 

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