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Sneak preview: Less than lethal rifle grenades

#1
Dear all,

Please see my invention attached to fit a standard 22mm OD flash eliminator.

As you can see the mechanical attachment bit is sorted out. This rifle grenade is compatible with all 22mm OD flash eliminators. I am open to orders to fit other muzzle diameters (e.g. 12ga shotguns) or cylindrical attachments (e.g. sound moderators).

The mass of the version in the movie is about 100g. The final sales version will be no more than 150g.

The device contains no energetics and is non-toxic/non-flammable.

The device has already been tested successfully against a 55gr 5.56x45mm soft point round. The maximum range of the projectile is about 27m. Now all that remains is testing using standard SS109 5.56x45mm ammo which has better armour piercing capability than the latter ammo (coming soon!). I am confident that these final tests will succeed as it is purely an engineering issue of putting enough bullet-resistant material to withstand penetration, and not a physical limitation of the concept itself.

For the moment, I can sell these purely as a safety feature during firearm storage and transport in the event of negligent discharge. Each one will cost GBP£50 + shipping, with some users qualifying for a 10% discount. Arrsers qualify for a 5% discount - please PM me for orders. I ship worldwide.

Once I get MoD approval for the sale and use of them as a less-than-lethal tool, I will be free to sell them for such a role to military users. Likewise from the HOSDB for the police. Now every soldier or armed police officer can have LtL capability at 150g extra weight, and GBP£50 cost - without needing a bespoke weapon + ammo :)

In the meantime if you decide to buy them, please consider them to be an additional safety feature akin to a breech flag :). The attachment of these onto the muzzles of your firearms does not obviate the same degree of firearm handling care & discipline!

The final design will be painted entirely red or some other vivid colour to serve as a visual warning. Think of it as a flying bright red boxing glove :)

The intellectual property of this invention is protected under UK patent law, with international patents pending.
 

Attachments

#2
Video of a headshot with the less-than-lethal rifle grenade at 20 metres using a M16 with iron sights and mil spec SS109 ammo :)

www.noveldefence.com/downloads/ltl_test6_20110603.mp4

Need to work out some minor bits here and there but the concept is proven :)

Sales are now open to civilians as a safety attachment in the event of negligent discharge. Sales specifically for a LtL role will require more testing and assessment by the DOSB and HOSDB.
 

Wordsmith

LE
Book Reviewer
#3
Once I get MoD approval for the sale and use of them as a less-than-lethal tool, I will be free to sell them for such a role to military users. Likewise from the HOSDB for the police. Now every soldier or armed police officer can have LtL capability at 150g extra weight, and GBP£50 cost - without needing a bespoke weapon + ammo :)
Can I ask some dumb questions?

1) Why would they go with this rather than a baton round. If you're going to quell a riot, you presumably know in advance that you're going to need non-lethal weapons.

2) They might not need a bespoke weapon, but they'll have to carry blank rounds. If they don't take the blanks, they can't fire the round.

3) What happens if you puts a live round up the spout by mistake?

Wordsmith
 
#5
Can I ask some dumb questions?

1) Why would they go with this rather than a baton round. If you're going to quell a riot, you presumably know in advance that you're going to need non-lethal weapons.
So you don't have to carry a baton round gun.

2) They might not need a bespoke weapon, but they'll have to carry blank rounds. If they don't take the blanks, they can't fire the round.
No it's propelled by a ball round.

3) What happens if you puts a live round up the spout by mistake?
See above.

 
#6
Can I ask some dumb questions?
Your questions are not dumb at all!

1) Why would they go with this rather than a baton round. If you're going to quell a riot, you presumably know in advance that you're going to need non-lethal weapons.
Yeah but what is the weight encumbrance and adoption/ongoing cost of using a 37mm baton gun or Taser?

My invention offers LtL capability to every soldier with a M4/M16/SA80/C7/anything else using a standard NATO flash eliminator for £50 at 150g weight penalty.

Later versions can be adopted for pistols, shotguns, etc. - wholly depending on the market.

2) They might not need a bespoke weapon, but they'll have to carry blank rounds. If they don't take the blanks, they can't fire the round.
No blank rounds needed. The LtL rifle grenades were tested with standard mil spec SS109 ammunition.

3) What happens if you puts a live round up the spout by mistake?
Actually it is designed to work with live rounds. A 55gr 5.56x45mm soft point projected the round to a maximum range of 26.6m. A 62gr 5.56x45mm FMJ round sent it flying to a maximum range of 40m.
 
#7
Can I ask some dumb questions?

2) They might not need a bespoke weapon, but they'll have to carry blank rounds. If they don't take the blanks, they can't fire the round.

3) What happens if you puts a live round up the spout by mistake?

Wordsmith
Thought it used live rounds? Bullet trap grenade derivative?

I wouldn't be happy accepting the responsibility for the risk when this is deployed in a riot!

The subsequent court case would be interesting.
 
#9
I wouldn't be happy accepting the responsibility for the risk when this is deployed in a riot!

The subsequent court case would be interesting.
I can't see this being used in an 'aid to the civil power' situation like NI- like you say, too much likelihood of a live round winging its way own the range. Also the range is a bit short at 40m, but countries whose security forces reach for the big stick straight away might try it as a sop to civil rights. I think its problem is the limited range, I'd want to double it.
 
#10
Thought it used live rounds? Bullet trap grenade derivative?
Yup.

I wouldn't be happy accepting the responsibility for the risk when this is deployed in a riot!

The subsequent court case would be interesting.
Well, let's see what the LtL options an individual soldier/armed police officer has in a riot:

1) Tear gas - can be thrown back, not discriminate.
2) Baton rounds - requires a bespoke weapon + ammo.
3) Tasers - requires a bespoke weapon + ammo. Also fairly short range and may be foiled by very heavy clothing.
4) LtL rounds from shotguns - nice, but it means soldiers have to carry either an underslung SG or a separate SG in addition to their rifles. Also hope they don't mix normal 00 buckshot in lieu of the beanbag round.

This gives throwaway LtL capability at 150g and £50. If put on gun muzzles as a matter of routine, the lethality or injury from negligent discharge events would be greatly curtailed.
 
#11
I can't see this being used in an 'aid to the civil power' situation like NI- like you say, too much likelihood of a live round winging its way own the range. Also the range is a bit short at 40m, but countries whose security forces reach for the big stick straight away might try it as a sop to civil rights. I think its problem is the limited range, I'd want to double it.
If you double the range you risk it being rather lethal at 5-10m.

In principle there is no restriction to the range with a sufficiently powerful cartridge. A 7.62x54mm or (heh heh) .50 BMG cartridge would propel it a lot further than 40m. The design will just have to be beefed up to cope with the higher muzzle energies.

Also for kinetic effect LtL rounds if you take an effective range of (say) 50m and a projectile velocity of say 100m/s it would still take half a second to reach the target, assuming constant velocity. A lot can happen in half a second and you may hit a young kid who just happened to be running by, or the target may have moved by then - bearing in mind they'd just have to move sideways by about a foot for you to miss them.

So to summarise I think for low velocity kinetic LtL options, short range will always be an issue - unless you have guided projectiles that lock onto the blighters :)
 
#12
I think getting in the habit of removing the magazine when its fitted so that only the round in the chamber is left. Would prevent accidently loosing off live rounds if the bod at the trigger was Set to "A" by accident or even if set to "R" and they have a twitchy trigger finger. Don't forget these would be deployed were Bods were liable to Nervous/excited/scared shitless .No point shooting a Less than lethal round if half a dozen ball follow it down range.
 
#13
I think getting in the habit of removing the magazine when its fitted so that only the round in the chamber is left. Would prevent accidently loosing off live rounds if the bod at the trigger was Set to "A" by accident or even if set to "R" and they have a twitchy trigger finger. Don't forget these would be deployed were Bods were liable to Nervous/excited/scared shitless .No point shooting a Less than lethal round if half a dozen ball follow it down range.
I have zero soldiering experience so can someone explain to me if it is standard operating procedure to only let loose aimed shots with an assault rifle or carbine? i.e. soldiers are already trained to fire with discriminate precision.

Under what circumstances would a soldier be permitted to go full auto?
 
#14
I think getting in the habit of removing the magazine when its fitted so that only the round in the chamber is left. Would prevent accidently loosing off live rounds if the bod at the trigger was Set to "A" by accident or even if set to "R" and they have a twitchy trigger finger. Don't forget these would be deployed where Bods were liable to Nervous/excited/scared shitless .No point shooting a Less than lethal round if half a dozen ball follow it down range.


Edited for clarity/sarcasm you decide.
 
B

BlueDZ

Guest
#17
Normally when assaulting a position to eliminate the enemy, think trenches, MG posts etc.
 
#19
Police forces would be the main users of LtL ordnance (my force uses the HK 69, the same system that the Army used in NI from about the mid-90s onwards), I can't see the MoD taking it up. Apart from a serious decline in the situation in NI, when is the Army likely to be involved in PO these days? We were not taught PO in pre-tour beat up prior to deploying on Op HERRICK in 2007, and I remember talking to some guys from 1 HLDRS when they returned from an early TELIC deployment, who said that when they used baton rounds In Basrah the locals returned fire with AK's.
 
#20
Police forces would be the main users of LtL ordnance (my force uses the HK 69, the same system that the Army used in NI from about the mid-90s onwards), I can't see the MoD taking it up. Apart from a serious decline in the situation in NI, when is the Army likely to be involved in PO these days? We were not taught PO in pre-tour beat up prior to deploying on Op HERRICK in 2007, and I remember talking to some guys from 1 HLDRS when they returned from an early TELIC deployment, who said that when they used baton rounds In Basrah the locals returned fire with AK's.
Well, there'll always be someone who is sour grapes and pulls a gun in a fistfight. As long as it is not us, our conscience is clear.

If standard operating procedure wrt used kit is anything to go by (e.g. used Javelins, LASMs) I'm guessing our soldiers can not discard LtL weapons/ammo even if their engagement turns out to require lethal measures. So the baton guns and ammo are dead weights for them when the fight turns lethal. In this case every soldier can have a couple of LtL rifle grenades. They can be very easily spent or thrown away without dodgy parts like springs being used in Terry's next IED.

Furthermore, that the second shot of a rifle with these LtL rifle grenades will be lethal, presents soldiers with very rapid force escalation from LtL -> lethal should circumstances warrant. This is a two edged sword with the fact that soldiers may accidentally have their rifles on full auto and let loose lethal rounds too.

As for what we might be involved in the future, we can not predict what will happen tomorrow how can we predict what will happen next month?

The war weariness of this country was high after Iraq/Afghanistan yet it seems we are embroiled in yet another conflict (Libya) before we know it.
 

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