Sneak preview: Less than lethal rifle grenades

Discussion in 'Weapons, Equipment & Rations' started by IndependentBoffin, May 31, 2011.

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  1. Dear all,

    Please see my invention attached to fit a standard 22mm OD flash eliminator.

    As you can see the mechanical attachment bit is sorted out. This rifle grenade is compatible with all 22mm OD flash eliminators. I am open to orders to fit other muzzle diameters (e.g. 12ga shotguns) or cylindrical attachments (e.g. sound moderators).

    The mass of the version in the movie is about 100g. The final sales version will be no more than 150g.

    The device contains no energetics and is non-toxic/non-flammable.

    The device has already been tested successfully against a 55gr 5.56x45mm soft point round. The maximum range of the projectile is about 27m. Now all that remains is testing using standard SS109 5.56x45mm ammo which has better armour piercing capability than the latter ammo (coming soon!). I am confident that these final tests will succeed as it is purely an engineering issue of putting enough bullet-resistant material to withstand penetration, and not a physical limitation of the concept itself.

    For the moment, I can sell these purely as a safety feature during firearm storage and transport in the event of negligent discharge. Each one will cost GBP£50 + shipping, with some users qualifying for a 10% discount. Arrsers qualify for a 5% discount - please PM me for orders. I ship worldwide.

    Once I get MoD approval for the sale and use of them as a less-than-lethal tool, I will be free to sell them for such a role to military users. Likewise from the HOSDB for the police. Now every soldier or armed police officer can have LtL capability at 150g extra weight, and GBP£50 cost - without needing a bespoke weapon + ammo :)

    In the meantime if you decide to buy them, please consider them to be an additional safety feature akin to a breech flag :). The attachment of these onto the muzzles of your firearms does not obviate the same degree of firearm handling care & discipline!

    The final design will be painted entirely red or some other vivid colour to serve as a visual warning. Think of it as a flying bright red boxing glove :)

    The intellectual property of this invention is protected under UK patent law, with international patents pending.

    Attached Files:

  2. Video of a headshot with the less-than-lethal rifle grenade at 20 metres using a M16 with iron sights and mil spec SS109 ammo :)

    Need to work out some minor bits here and there but the concept is proven :)

    Sales are now open to civilians as a safety attachment in the event of negligent discharge. Sales specifically for a LtL role will require more testing and assessment by the DOSB and HOSDB.
  3. Wordsmith

    Wordsmith LE Book Reviewer

    Can I ask some dumb questions?

    1) Why would they go with this rather than a baton round. If you're going to quell a riot, you presumably know in advance that you're going to need non-lethal weapons.

    2) They might not need a bespoke weapon, but they'll have to carry blank rounds. If they don't take the blanks, they can't fire the round.

    3) What happens if you puts a live round up the spout by mistake?

  4. Have you actually fired this at a human ?
  5. So you don't have to carry a baton round gun.

    No it's propelled by a ball round.

    See above.

  6. Your questions are not dumb at all!

    Yeah but what is the weight encumbrance and adoption/ongoing cost of using a 37mm baton gun or Taser?

    My invention offers LtL capability to every soldier with a M4/M16/SA80/C7/anything else using a standard NATO flash eliminator for £50 at 150g weight penalty.

    Later versions can be adopted for pistols, shotguns, etc. - wholly depending on the market.

    No blank rounds needed. The LtL rifle grenades were tested with standard mil spec SS109 ammunition.

    Actually it is designed to work with live rounds. A 55gr 5.56x45mm soft point projected the round to a maximum range of 26.6m. A 62gr 5.56x45mm FMJ round sent it flying to a maximum range of 40m.
  7. Thought it used live rounds? Bullet trap grenade derivative?

    I wouldn't be happy accepting the responsibility for the risk when this is deployed in a riot!

    The subsequent court case would be interesting.
  8. Haha I volunteered to stand down range, but elfin safety and all that! :(
  9. I can't see this being used in an 'aid to the civil power' situation like NI- like you say, too much likelihood of a live round winging its way own the range. Also the range is a bit short at 40m, but countries whose security forces reach for the big stick straight away might try it as a sop to civil rights. I think its problem is the limited range, I'd want to double it.
  10. Yup.

    Well, let's see what the LtL options an individual soldier/armed police officer has in a riot:

    1) Tear gas - can be thrown back, not discriminate.
    2) Baton rounds - requires a bespoke weapon + ammo.
    3) Tasers - requires a bespoke weapon + ammo. Also fairly short range and may be foiled by very heavy clothing.
    4) LtL rounds from shotguns - nice, but it means soldiers have to carry either an underslung SG or a separate SG in addition to their rifles. Also hope they don't mix normal 00 buckshot in lieu of the beanbag round.

    This gives throwaway LtL capability at 150g and £50. If put on gun muzzles as a matter of routine, the lethality or injury from negligent discharge events would be greatly curtailed.
  11. If you double the range you risk it being rather lethal at 5-10m.

    In principle there is no restriction to the range with a sufficiently powerful cartridge. A 7.62x54mm or (heh heh) .50 BMG cartridge would propel it a lot further than 40m. The design will just have to be beefed up to cope with the higher muzzle energies.

    Also for kinetic effect LtL rounds if you take an effective range of (say) 50m and a projectile velocity of say 100m/s it would still take half a second to reach the target, assuming constant velocity. A lot can happen in half a second and you may hit a young kid who just happened to be running by, or the target may have moved by then - bearing in mind they'd just have to move sideways by about a foot for you to miss them.

    So to summarise I think for low velocity kinetic LtL options, short range will always be an issue - unless you have guided projectiles that lock onto the blighters :)
    • Like Like x 1
  12. I think getting in the habit of removing the magazine when its fitted so that only the round in the chamber is left. Would prevent accidently loosing off live rounds if the bod at the trigger was Set to "A" by accident or even if set to "R" and they have a twitchy trigger finger. Don't forget these would be deployed were Bods were liable to Nervous/excited/scared shitless .No point shooting a Less than lethal round if half a dozen ball follow it down range.
  13. I have zero soldiering experience so can someone explain to me if it is standard operating procedure to only let loose aimed shots with an assault rifle or carbine? i.e. soldiers are already trained to fire with discriminate precision.

    Under what circumstances would a soldier be permitted to go full auto?

  14. Edited for clarity/sarcasm you decide.
  15. ……Well, you're the boffin, crack on ;-)