SLR v SA80 the results are in

Two comprehensive, valid answers in favour of the SA80, based on user experience that piss all over mine - cheers, very reasoned and informative.

One more question if I may @Gravelbelly - I've heard it said a couple of time (Herrick veterans) that 556 can be ineffective against an adrenaline fuelled charging enemy ("it took a whole magazine to bring him down"). What's your response to claims that 556 isn't lethal or 'heavy' enough?
It has done the job required of it. Many factors affect the effectiveness of any round.
 
What's your response to claims that 556 isn't lethal or 'heavy' enough?

The conversion from 7.62 to 5.56 was sold by the Infantry Schools of excellence as being a method of increasing battlefield casualties in order to tie up more troops dealing with casualties.

At the time I didn't see the logic when you consider how we would deal with our own casualties - Why anyone thought an enemy would react any different to us in dealing with casualties was difficult to get my head around.
 

TamH70

MIA
Sure -I can remember a small amount of broken firing pins



Sorry - Who was I meant to recognise. Spill the beans

Peter Laidler. I think he's in jail now or something.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
One more question if I may @Gravelbelly - I've heard it said a couple of time (Herrick veterans) that 556 can be ineffective against an adrenaline fuelled charging enemy ("it took a whole magazine to bring him down"). What's your response to claims that 556 isn't lethal or 'heavy' enough?
Not Gravelbelly, but aware of some of this...

There was a myth doing the rounds that 5.56mm was "less lethal" and meant to "wound not kill" because "a wounded soldier needed more of his mates to look after him" - which was all entire bollocks that someone made up. (remember your battle drills where you leave casualties until the reorganisation? If you lose, it's trivial that the enemy's got a few wounded-not-dead to deal with; if you win they're now your problem and burden)

Amusingly, it ran in parallel with widespread claims that the 5.56mm was "inhumane" because of its "excessive lethality", where its "tumbling bullets" caused massive injuries that nobody could survive and so were a war crime to use in battle. Somehow, both myths seemed to be able to run in parallel, or even be believed by the same person at the same time...

There was a famous quote in Mark Bowden's "Black Hawk Down" about the supposed inadequacy of M855 'green tip' ammunition, which was meant to punch through body armour but "wasn't dropping the Somalis" with the SF soldier in question wishing he had a M14 with its big manstopping 7.62mm rounds. What's left out (because Bowden's a journalist not a firearms expert) was that Howe was using a 'customised CAR-15' - a carbine version of the M16 with a 10.5" barrel, half the length of a standard M16, and the combination of the heavier M855 bullet and the short barrel meant the ammunition was underperforming badly (one of the reasons rushing to grab 'ally' kit without checking the details, can have unexpected side-effects). Curiously, the much more numerous Rangers and 10th Mountain troops - with full-length M16s - reported no such problems, which you'd have thought would be widespread if 5.56mm was really failing to hurt people.

More recently, we had Operation VALKYRIE, where stories of "I shot him ten times with 5.56mm and he laughed and said 'stop that, it tickles' " got investigated and checked (I know one of the analysts involved, who's a RMR reservist with a couple of operational tours as well as a PhD in ballistics - good bloke, no pushover). Most of the stories turned out to trace back to someone who'd never been outside the wire, Billy Big-Timing it; the rest turned out to be going from "I hit him three or four times and he kept running as if nothing happened..." to "I fired three or four snap shots, at a running man 250-300 metres away, and nothing happened..." (in other words, you missed)

There's plenty of evidence that a torso hit with a 5.56mm from a L85 rifle will leave the recipient needing serious medical attention or an undertaker; and a distinct shortage of evidence that even determined adversaries can shrug it off - which, after this many years, is fairly decisive.
 

Themanwho

LE
Book Reviewer
A polite & genuine question if I may.

Can you clarify an earlier post you made regarding the SLR having a 2 piece firing pin ?

All I can remember is the bolt - Firing pin - spring and firing pin retaining pin and bolt carrier complete with rats tail.
Sorry for the poor quality image:

1627040764806.png

Item 324 is the firing pin spring, Item 325 is the firing pin, and 326 is the firing pin anvil or extension (IIRC), the slid inside the breech block and were held in place by the lateral pin at the rear of the breech block (327), reatained by pressure of the firing pin spring.

Hope that helps?
 

Themanwho

LE
Book Reviewer
You may well think that, a design solely from the genius brain of Dieudonné Saive.

For those of you old enough to have used that beloved rifle, does this look vaguely familiar?

View attachment 590954

A tilting, rear-locking bolt in a distinctively-profiled bolt carrier, which is from a Russian SVT-40.
The FAL gas regulating system is allegedly similar to the AVS-36.
The SVT designation means Samozaryadnaya Vintovka Tokareva, Tokarev's Self-Loading Rifle.

For the benefit of those too young to have encountered an SLR (probably most people), the corresponding parts looked like this, The bolt is tilted to a different angle relative to the carrier, to show the rear-locking lug..

View attachment 591093




"The SVT-38 is a gas-operated rifle with a short-stroke, spring-loaded piston above the barrel and a tilting bolt. This configuration gained wider acceptance later. There is some dispute about who exactly first developed this operating principle, as the SVT's mechanism (as implemented in 1935 competition prototype) closely resembles Dieudonné Saive's design of 1937; Saive eventually designed both the FN-49 and FN FAL, which use similar operating principles."

The beloved SLR is a Belgian knock-off of a Russian design. The Russian version was more powerful, it needed a muzzle brake. It had been around since 1938 and Saive and FN spent the intervening years refining it into the FAL via the SLEM-1 and the FN-49.

The tragedy of this is that, by the time the British Army got the SLR in 1954, the Russian equivalent was obsolete, superseded twice in fact. First by the SKS (intermediate cartridge, same locking system) and then by Comrade Kalashnikov's nasty toy (intermediate cartridge, 30 round mag and rotating bolt). The SLR was a giant leap backwards from the EM-2. It was an excellent rifle for it's time, but its time was about 1940, it was far beyond it's best-before date by the time the British got it.

The Russian squaddies probably bitched like fcuk when it was binned for the puny 7.62 x 39mm replacements.

I'm not criticising Saive for nicking the design, he picked the most suitable action for his design; I'd have done the same. Other designers had used tilting bolts before Tokarev. Besides which, if the Comrades hadn't bothered to patent it, then it's fair game.

SLRs should henceforth be called SVT-54s, just to wind some people up.
BLASPHEMY!!! Arrest this soldier and put ‘im in the pokey!
Bloody peasant, he’ll be telling us next that the World’s not flat and Covid isn’t a conspiracy by the World’s governments to control the working class!

footnote: I do remember the bolt and carrier from the SLR, I remember removing the round extractor once to clean it, and having a devil of a job getting it back in, it wasn’t part of daily cleaning to remove it, instead reserved for REME armourers which I was not!
 
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DaManBugs

LE
Book Reviewer
That would be the John Wayne wannabe moderator
Of course It wouldn't ever happen that you fücked up and got the "first prize", would it? Just asking, like.:p

MsG
 
BLASPHEMY!!! Arrest this soldier and put ‘im in the pokey!
Bloody peasant, he’ll be telling us next that the World’s not flat and Covid isn’t a conspiracy by the World’s governments to control the working class!

footnote: I do remember the bolt and carrier from the SLR, I remember removing the round extractor once to clean it, and having a devil of a job getting it back in, it wasn’t part of daily cleaning to remove it, instead reserved for REME armourers which I was not!
For anybody who removed the extractor using the little pin on the combination tool, I have only one word.

B-O-I-N-N-N-G !
 

Themanwho

LE
Book Reviewer

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