Six More US MIA returned to their families

[par avion]

The top of the hill above this memorial is where the Glousters fought their final battle known as Glouster Hill. In 1983 you could go to the top of the hill and look down onto the Imjim river, including the ford where the Chinese were first engaged and the other company positions were, but it seems to be overgrown now..

The place at the top of the steps is an old mineshaft. After the battle the local Korean villagers collected all the bodies of the British fallen and put them in there for safe keeping until the UN forces reoccupied the area. After the bodies were reburied in the UN war cemetery in Pusan the Koreans turned it into a shrine for spirits of the dead soldiers. It subsequently became a memorial and is where the annual commemorations are held.

During the height of the battle apparently the British 29 Brigade commaner Brigadier Brodie was asked about his situation by his higher US Commander. Apparently he said "Its rather sticky sir but I think we will manage." To the American General this meant he situation was OK but in classic British military understatement Brodie really meant 'we are deep in the shit and about to get overun here' not quite realising that while a British or Commonwealth General would instantly understand the nuances, an American officer would not.

Getting slightly back on target. There are still a number of British MIA's from 27 British Brigade and 41 Commando from the battles in North Korea and the subsequent retreat south in 1950.

 

[par avion]

Andrew Salmon has written an excellent book on both the Battle of the Imjin River and the British and Australian forces in 27 British Brigade in 1950. He was an arrse member about 10 years ago.

 

[Stanchion]

Thanks for that I have done some checking and found a quote of 12 died in captivity. Figures do not include great detail if captured wounded but later died of those wounds? Also remember reading of an Officer, Middx Regt who was POW of Japanese and in Korea, captured Hong Kong 1941 surrender then Korea.

Just found this in Col Michael Hickey's excellent The Korean War - The West Confronts Communism 1950-1953)
pp 341-341;

It gives a revised figure for British POWs going into captivity and also mentions a soldier who not only had been a FEPOW but ended up in the same camp!

<<
A total of 977 British officers and men fell into the hands of the enemy in
Korea; of these the largest proportion came from the Glosters, their attached
personnel and supporting gunners. ‘They had fought until exhausted, and had
it not been for officers like Farrar-Hockley, reluctantly ordering his men to lay
down their arms when further resistance would have been suicidal, the death
toll would have been appalling.
Many of those marching north under the guns of their escorts had known earlier
captivities; Mr Hobbs, the Regimental Sergeant-Major, captured in Belgium in 1940
serving with the regiment's 2nd Battalion; Major Guy Ward of the gunners, taken in
Crete in 1941.
Captain Farrar-Hockley’s batman had been captured at Arnhem in 1944. Some had been
prisoners of the Japanese and one of these, Lance-Corporal Aylward - known
throughout the battalion as ‘Jungle Jim’ — had been confined by them for a time
at the Munsan-ni staging camp in North Korea (known from the inmates’ diet
as the Bean Camp) where, to his dismay, he presently found himself once more.
After many long night marches in which the relatively fit took it in turns to
carry the sick and wounded, the survivors of the Glosters reached the Yalu
camps in mid-June. Here at least were some friendly faces — the men of the
Royal Ulster Rifles and the 8th Hussars captured earlier in the year.
>>

 

[Bodenplatte]

Drum Major Buss had been a POW in WW2, captured in 1940 with 2 Glosters. One third of 29 Brigade including 1 Glosters, 1 RUR and 1 RNF were made up of regular reservists from the Z reserve. They were from every regiment of the British Army including the Paras and had enlisted in 1939, gone through WW2 and were reaching the end of their reserve service. They were not happy bunnies, especially a few who had been FEPOW's.

The Glosters nickname "Glooms" derives from the state of mind of those reservists at the time.

 

[Stanchion]

Standard lefty technique to this day, exploit factions and groups with grudge. During Chinese Civil war leading to establishment PRC turning POW's from the ROC Army to fight for the communists was standard and could be done in a few weeks indoctrination.

Yes,
In both UK and US 'brain-washing' became the new buzz-world in the aftermath of the war and in the US, one psycho-analyst even gave it a medical name - Menticide, or mind-murder.
What I find a bit hard to understand is despite the sensitivity and almost a phobia about brain-washing in UK, it didn't seem to have run any alarm bells over the traitor George Blake who apparently was 'turned' whilst an internee in Korea - although I suspect he may have had communist leanings before his internment.

 

[Mike Barton]

On the subject of Korean War prisoners of war, I read one of the best refutations of the concept of communism in another book (whose title once again escapes me) in a memoir written by a veteran of Imjin captured by the North Koreans but who then went on to serve in Borneo and elsewhere.

I have no idea whether he came up with the idea himself or whether it was standard thinking among his peers but he pointed out to his would-be brainwashers that as a soldier he already lived in a communist society.

He explained that he and his mates were all employed by the government, which gave them their jobs on the basis of what the government wanted and not on what they personally wanted to do. They all did their jobs for the government without any personal enrichment, following the government's instructions without question. They all lived in communal housing, getting up at the same time, eating the same food and wearing the same clothes, all provided by the government.

They all got paid the same amount as determined by the government, and yet at the end of every month some men were richer than others, some had blown their money on cigarettes and beer, others had saved every penny, some sent their money home to their wives, others lost their money to some unscrupulous whore, some lost their money through gambling while others won it, some borrowed money and got into debt others lent out money. They all lived the communist dream and still inequality in wealth persisted.

 

[Norwegian Blue]

Andrew Salmon has written an excellent book on both the Battle of the Imjin River and the British and Australian forces in 27 British Brigade in 1950. He was an arrse member about 10 years ago.

Picked up a signed copy in the Glosters museum a few years ago. An excellent account, giving full credit to the other units involved too.

 

[Bodenplatte]

"Fred" Carne VC was subjected to brainwashing techniques. The possible long term effects were a source of concern - there was a fear that people who had undergone the mental re-programming might be implanted in military positions as sleepers, to be reactivated at a later date.
Carne received only one further promotion after his return from captivity, and for a while I think he was Commandant of the Army Apprentice School at Harrogate.

 

[Bus Pass 01]

He was indeed. Adjutant of 1 Glousters. Captured in the Battle of the Imjin River April 1951 while leading a breakout.

Wrote a very good book about his experiences in Korea, both in the battle and as a POW.

View attachment 555081

This book was, may be still is, on the recommended reading list for conduct after capture.

 

[Bus Pass 01]

"Fred" Carne VC was subjected to brainwashing techniques. The possible long term effects were a source of concern - there was a fear that people who had undergone the mental re-programming might be implanted in military positions as sleepers, to be reactivated at a later date.
Carne received only one further promotion after his return from captivity, and for a while I think he was Commandant of the Army Apprentice School at Harrogate.

Yes, there was even a feature film on the subject The Manchurian Candidate. Many POW's returned with an impressive knowledge of Marxism (could run rings around Steptow) though I don not think any became 'activists' on their return to civilian life.

<i>The Manchurian Candidate</i> (1962 film)

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Bodenplatte]

He was indeed. Adjutant of 1 Glousters. Captured in the Battle of the Imjin River April 1951 while leading a breakout.

Wrote a very good book about his experiences in Korea, both in the battle and as a POW.

View attachment 555081

I knew him fairly well. I always thought that Carne's VC should have gone to him.
He made six escape attempts during his time as a POW.

And before I explode, Gloucesters or Glosters.
Not Glousters.

 

[AULD_SWEAT]

I knew him fairly well. I always thought that Carne's VC should have gone to him.
He made six escape attempts during his time as a POW.

And before I explode, Gloucesters or Glosters.
Not Glousters.

Don't they make pasty's?

 

[Stanchion]

A battalion assembles prior to Korea.
This excerpt* shows that there were divided feelings among soldiers recalled to the colours prior to embarkation,

<<
Bury St Edmunds — The Way to Korea

In June 1950, North Korea invaded South Korea and the USA, which had
military units stationed in South Korea and Japan, requested help from
the United Nations to repulse the aggressor. Much international discussion
took place, but as far as the Regiment was concerned, very soon it would
be on its way to South Korea. Mr Attlee having agreed that Britain would
play her role, 29 Brigade, amongst others, was to be sent to Korea.
Unfortunately a battalion in 29 Brigade had been found unfit for war, and would
take the Fifth Fusiliers’ place as demonstration battalion. The First Battalion
of the Fifth Fusiliers would take theirs in 29 Brigade. The niceties of finding
a battalion unfit for war to be the demonstration battalion at the School of
Infantry results purely from the Fifth Fusilier motto ‘Quo fata vocant’ (where
the fates call).
Therefore, in August 1950, the Battalion moved to Bury St Edmunds to start its
training for Korea. The First Battalion was not able at the time to take national
servicemen under a certain age unless they had volunteered, and this meant
that the Battalion lost virtually all its soldiers as a result, The Government
therefore called the first-line reserve and the ‘K’ Volunteers. The latter were
men who were prepared to volunteer for Korea and had previous service.
The Fifth Fusiliers took on board 1,200 men from these to form the new battalion
and its own field reserve.
These were all men who had served in the last conflict, some of whom
had even been members of the 9th Battalion of the Fifth Fusiliers who had
been taken prisoner of war at Singapore, and some had been looked after
by Korean guards. It would bring an interesting dimension to the ex-prisoners
of war if they decided to go and seek their previous aggressors and drive
their old guards into captivity. Fortunately, British soldiers do not react in
this way.
The reinforcements had known five years of peace during which
time a great number had married, had children and started their own
businesses; others patently wished to escape from that environment and
were only too pleased to return.
The canteen on the first two or three night was full of men drowning their
sorrows because they had had to leave home and others celebrating the fact that
they had had to do so. The problems that had to be dealt with in paying off, or attempting
to settle hire-purchase debts, or mortgages which the wife couldn’t afford to pay were
legion
>>

* From Fusilier Geordie - Paddy Baxter & John Masters

 

[par avion]

I knew him fairly well. I always thought that Carne's VC should have gone to him.
He made six escape attempts during his time as a POW.

And before I explode, Gloucesters or Glosters.
Not Glousters.

Yeah, I know, fat fingers. Sorry if I upset you.

 

[par avion]

On the subject of Korean War prisoners of war, I read one of the best refutations of the concept of communism in another book (whose title once again escapes me) in a memoir written by a veteran of Imjin captured by the North Koreans but who then went on to serve in Borneo and elsewhere.

I have no idea whether he came up with the idea himself or whether it was standard thinking among his peers but he pointed out to his would-be brainwashers that as a soldier he already lived in a communist society.

He explained that he and his mates were all employed by the government, which gave them their jobs on the basis of what the government wanted and not on what they personally wanted to do. They all did their jobs for the government without any personal enrichment, following the government's instructions without question. They all lived in communal housing, getting up at the same time, eating the same food and wearing the same clothes, all provided by the government.

They all got paid the same amount as determined by the government, and yet at the end of every month some men were richer than others, some had blown their money on cigarettes and beer, others had saved every penny, some sent their money home to their wives, others lost their money to some unscrupulous whore, some lost their money through gambling while others won it, some borrowed money and got into debt others lent out money. They all lived the communist dream and still inequality in wealth persisted.

You are thinking of Lofty Large. It was in his book 'One man's war in Korea.' He was wounded and captured with the Glousters at the Imjin battle. He had joined the battalion just before the battle as a BCR from the Wiltshire Regiment in Hong Kong.

He also served in 22 SAS from 1957 to 1973 and wrote about it in 'One mans SAS.'

 

[Mike Barton]

You are thinking of Lofty Large. It was in his book 'One man's war in Korea.' He was wounded and captured with the Glousters at the Imjin battle. He had joined the battalion just before the battle as a BCR from the Wiltshire Regiment in Hong Kong.

He also served in 22 SAS from 1957 to 1973 and wrote about it in 'One mans SAS.'

View attachment 555282View attachment 555285

That's the badger. If I recall he claims he nearly killed Benny Moerdani, the Indonesian general (and fierce anti-Communist) while the latter was on a boat but refrained from doing so when he saw a pretty young woman on the boat along with Benny.

 

[Goldbricker]

2 more MIA accounted for

From World War II
PFC Juan F. Gutierrez, US Army, assigned to the 200th Coast Artillery Regiment, was lost at Cabanatuan, Philippines, on 19 November 1942. His accounting was announced on 3 March 2021.

From Korea
MSG James Hart, Jr., US Army, assigned to C Company, 1st Battalion, 32nd Infantry Regiment, 7th Infantry Division, was lost IVO Chosin Reservoir, North Korea, on 2 December 1950. His accounting was announced on 4 March 2021.

 

[mad_mick]

I knew him fairly well. I always thought that Carne's VC should have gone to him.
He made six escape attempts during his time as a POW.

And before I explode, Gloucesters or Glosters.
Not Glousters.

After "Glousters".... I'm guessing Steptow is Harry Corbetts "Harold Steptoe".... and what I think he's really looking for is Warren Mitchells "Alf Garnett".

If Steptow is some clever academic I've never heard of.... I'm going to feel really silly.

 

[exspy]

Here are some mortality rates for POW's WW2 - what was the UK rate in Korea? US WW2 rate for those held by Japan was much higher but not up to Korean War.

USSR POWs held by Germans	57.5%
German POWs held by Yugoslavs	41.2%
German POWs held by USSR	35.8%
American POWs held by Japanese	33.0%
German POWs held by Eastern Europeans	32.9%
British POWs held by Japanese	24.8%
German POWs held by Czechoslovaks	5.0%
British POWs held by Germans	3.5%
German POWs held by French	2.58%
American POWs held by Germans	1.19%
German POWs held by Americans	0.15%
German POWs held by British	0.03%

I find the mortality percentage of 'German POWs held by USSR' at 35.8% to be extremely low. The overwhelming majority of German POWs taken by the Soviets never returned. And it took the Soviets 10 years before allowing the ones who did return to leave.

 

[par avion]

That's the badger. If I recall he claims he nearly killed Benny Moerdani, the Indonesian general (and fierce anti-Communist) while the latter was on a boat but refrained from doing so when he saw a pretty young woman on the boat along with Benny.

Thats the one. It was in the book.

PFC Juan F. Gutierrez, US Army, assigned to the 200th Coast Artillery Regiment, was lost at Cabanatuan, Philippines, on 19 November 1942. His accounting was announced on 3 March 2021.

He must have been a Japanese POW by that stage of the war, unless he hooked up with the Filipino Guerillas.

And it took the Soviets 10 years before allowing the ones who did return to leave.

Not all. Some of the younger ones, even Waffen SS were realised within a couple of years. As the Soviets needed labour though, they sentenced all those who were officers or NCO's or specialists such as machine gunners, mortar men, etc to 25 years hard labour for waging war against the Soviet Union. This was after the end of the war.

A lot though must have been realised in the DDR. Many refused that. Holding out for release into the west. I don't know why though as until the Berlin wall in 1961 you could just walk into West Berlin.Adenauer secured the release of the last 10,000 in 1955/56 as a result of his visit to Moscow in 1955.

In books on Stalingrad it is often stated that only 5,000 returned home of the 90,000 members of the Sixth Army who surrendered at Stalingrad. But that's to West Germany. I wonder how many went to East Germany. Many of the survivors defected to the Soviets after the surrender.