Sir, Sir, 'me GAT doesn't work Sir!

#1
£92m refit and the Toy & Hobby gun still doesn't work. Come on "Buff" Hoon, get a fekkin grip and sort the problem out and just buy the bloody M16 or the H&K M36.

The only other people who bought that piece of kak we call a rifle are the Jamacan reserves and the producers of Soldier Soldier!
 
#2
I can just imagine the next MOD meeting, mr Hoon about to address the commanders...
"Right, now I've been studying the rifle since it came in, and have been working closesly with the senior officers who use it. you know, the ones who were up for promotion a while ago? Well, after a couple of £million we think we've identified the key issue; it doesn't work does it?"
 
#3
How badly doesn't it work? The papers today said that on occasions Marines had suffered jams and stoppages. Well, it's a rifle. They all stop occasionally. I put the A2 through a horrendous couple of mud-filled days in the red gloop on Sennybridge and it was quite admirable.  I'll reserve judgement till someone sends me to the jungle, desert and possibly a bit of skiing though...
 
#4
Look after it then ,clean on regular occasions,
diff climates diff cleaning techniques,
M16 bollocks & every other piece of  :-X
By the way we had no probs in the Gulf. Educate the user & IT WILL FUNCTION CORRECTLY.
 
#5
Beware MOD spin - and ask a Marine who used the kit - the jungle drums suggest that the failures were a lot more widespread and serious than anyone is letting on and someone is going to have to come up with some very good arrse-covering to excuse the cock-up they've made over this one.

I'm sure Sennybridge is very tough - but two days there is not three weeks on patrol in the Hindu Kush, for real. There is a big difference between the usage the weapon gets from someone who rides around in the back of a Warrior most of the time before storming onto the bad guys - and people that are patrolling on foot for weeks at a time.  As ever, if it's so damn good, why don't the Hereford Gun Club use it ?( And the ranges at Senny' aren't generally two-way - which tends to make your weapon failing a bit more critical).

If there are any Marines reading this - just what is the real story ?
 
#6
???it's pants the new A2 used it on a operational tour and theres nothing more emarassing than patroling down the road and the bottom of the mag dropping out and 30 rds hitting the ground not funny when your on the falls road might sound funny but when 8 out of a 12 man patrol happens to them on various patrols you've got to ask questions..as for the fine young muppets who trailed it in brunei i remeber seeing them on the ranges at 10 but in the lines by 1600 putting thru its paces......not... A2 like C95 trs dont take them out the packet
 
#7
I designed it!, it works fine indoors where we tested it, we also got the guards to try it  and they managed to polish it and march up and down with it. It's not meant to last forever just for the average career length of ones soldiers(three years),,,,,,, so there!
 
#8
Chalky663 is on the nail!  If you look after kit as you are trained,  it will work for you.  This means cleaning the weapon as regularly as you can when in dry dusty conditions.  Strangely enough if you don't look after the M16 or the HK M36 they too will jam and will not work.  In case you have forgotten its called basic field craft and you were beasted for it in training for a reason!

As to buying a new weapon like the M16 or the HKM36 - why would you want a less accurate and less reliable weapon on operations where accuracy at long range and reliability in harsh conditions are the key elements?

Use a bit of grey matter and stop firing from the hip!  Strangely enough the M16 went through all these problems when it first came in to service.  The battle environment is tough; no equipment has a 100% reliability, but by using BFA (Basic F*****g Admin) you can improve the performance of any peice of kit.
 
#9
Hey - Thinking Soldier (suddenly new to the forum...) you're not a from the DLO by any chance are you ?  Would you be happy to expand on your line to the members of 45 Cdo who actually had to use the thing for real - since basically you are saying that it's their gash admin that is responsible for the weapon's failings. :eek:
 
#10
I would say it's best not to make a final judgement until we get unadulterated reports from the marines, without the influence from higher powers common from official announcements. Maybe it is all about cleaning (although surely a weapon which will work if fully cleaned twice a day is worse than one which will, if required, work with none - I doubt extended battles will stop so you can give your rifle a quick clean down). And so far we have mainly relied on the MoD for information regarding reliability, but as history has proven we cannot ignore the ultimate test of equipment that is combat.
 
#12
One point that seems to have been missed is that we are still spending money trying to make the SA80 work. Yes, it is true the M16 had teething problems, but these were largely sorted prior to the SA80 coming into service, hence no mid-life update had we have opted for that weapon in the first place.

Face it, we have neither the money nor the resources of the US arms industry to develop outstanding kit of our own, yet we insist on trying to go it alone, often to our expense (Nimrod AEW over AWACS, Bowman over just about anything on the market and so on).

The comments about field admin may well be appropriate to a training unit, ATR, RMAS et al, but 45 Cmdo? I think if they experience problems the kit is at fault not the user.

As anyone familiar with snagging projects will be aware, you build in a zero rate tolerance of failure. Many Japanese electronics firms actually produced deliberate failiures to "meet" the 2% tolerance many purchasers specified as to them the concept of allowing a single faulty part to leave the factory was enathema. If the Japanese electronic industry can manufacture 100% reliability, then we should also be able to accept that. it is only because it is ingrained in our psychie that the kit we use is crap that we accept it willingly as Thinking Soldier indicates. Statistical sampling and other such methods can quickly eradicate faults at source. It just costs R&D money to achieve.
 
#14
Woopert, good points all.  We do all exist in a resource capped environment and there is just no way that the MOD is going to throw money at R&D.  Not because it doesn't value the lives of its servicemen, but because the Civil Serpents who populate the Treasury don't! :mad: :mad: :mad:
 

OldSnowy

LE
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#15
Glad someone differentiates between evil Civil Serpents in the Treasury and us good guys in the MoD - well, some of us!  Yes, the DLO have no money, and we cannot hope to keep up with the US on R&D, but how come BAE can buy a good firm like H&K and not get us to buy more H&K weapons?  I thought that BAe could sell us anything (and often do).
By the way, other great Armies of the World using the SA80 - Mozambique, and the Papua New Guinea Defence Force.  Common denominator - they both got 'em for nothing!
 
#16
The problem of course is the fact that following teh the carefully constructed URD and the very detailed SRD produced by small groups of determined weapon trained Staff Officers and their trusty Civvy sidekicks down the old 'Bois, down selection of solutions concentrates not on capability but the cheapest 80% solution.    
 
#17
Couple of things for woopert:
1. No system is 100% reliable - it ain't possible. Even clever little asians can't achieve 100% reliability.
2.Just because highly trained and disciplined soldiers find problems when operating equipment, it doesn't mean the kit is faulty, it is possible for people to shortcut correct procedures, no matter how good they think they are.  If they were perfect, they wouldn't be human.
 
#18
Chalky663 is on the nail!  If you look after kit as you are trained,  it will work for you.  This means cleaning the weapon as regularly as you can when in dry dusty conditions.  Strangely enough if you don't look after the M16 or the HK M36 they too will jam and will not work.  In case you have forgotten its called basic field craft and you were beasted for it in training for a reason!

As to buying a new weapon like the M16 or the HKM36 - why would you want a less accurate and less reliable weapon on operations where accuracy at long range and reliability in harsh conditions are the key elements?

Use a bit of grey matter and stop firing from the hip!  Strangely enough the M16 went through all these problems when it first came in to service.  The battle environment is tough; no equipment has a 100% reliability, but by using BFA (Basic F*****g Admin) you can improve the performance of any peice of kit.

Their IS a problem with the fundamental design of the SA80. The govt has even admitted as such before doing their usual turnaround and blaming our guys. Yes, when the M16 first came into service it had problems but this was mostly due the cheap rounds they procured at the time. They are now moving on to the M4 design. Not because there were massive problems with the old but they wanted to ensure a longer shelf life and it now has the ability that all yanks love of being able to add more bolt on goodies. The G36 is a very accurate and robust wpn. In testing we found it just as accurate and WAY more robust than the SA80, which was designed more from a marksman viewpoint by paper punchers than from a combat perspective.
  I agree completey that basic fieldcraft goes a long way to avoiding problems but you can't afford to clean your weapon out of potatoes every 2 seconds, due to it's wonderful meccano design. Yes, in theory on a nice Bisley range the SA80 will perform nicely, but if I clean and service a Porsche every two minutes as soon as I drive it into a field it will still stop working properly.
    The Lee-Enfield was accurate and robust but I still don't want one.
 
#19
Verdi, the basic design flaw you are talking about is what the A2 upgrade is sorting, it's all to do with feed angles of the round.
H&K did a lot of work on this hence the modification to the barrel extension.
 
#20
Seen! But they've also been having a number of other problems that still ensure decent stoppages at certain moments, i.e, when attempting to fire more than half a mag at anything higher than room temp in dusty conditions. (yeah, I know I'm exaggerating). This is why HK have flown out a 12 man team to Afghanistan. They still haven't finished there findings but the Govt have already come to the conclusion they wanted. I think they've released it earlier than expected. Or was it another Byers program of press release coinciding with other news such as Deepcut and the mystery of the 5 rd burst suicide.
 

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