Since Youre Getting Shot At Anyway...

[Rocketeer]

would you go back to the sandbox, jungle or whatever as a ' security consultant' ?

right now there are 70,000 [!!] such ' private operatives ' serving in Iraq and a whackload of others in Afghanistan, parts of Africa and points [ Middle ] east. in the employ of ' special security firms ' [ some even with lucrative contracts with the US and other governments ] There are a number of $80 million US a year security firms that didn't exist 2 years ago...

last year this 'business' was worth $ 40 billion in Iraq and there are no ' reliable' figures as to what the rest of the world market generates.

Top level Canadian forces personnel are being lured away by ' private firms ' with offers of $ 1000 US per day, so many were jumping ship from the elite units like JTF2 that NDHQ had to hike allowances by as much a $ 40 grand a year to keep experienced operatives in uniform..

Problem is the market is so hot, most firms aren't looking too closely at resumes and anyone coming in and claiming he served with the SAS/SBS/Delta etc. [ was in the Catering Corps and served lunch and beer at their Summer Fest and Christmas Party ] can walt into a cushy position as ' escort ' to excutives, security driver, close bodyguard duties, etc. etc. as well a keeping an eye on ' sensitive installations '..

Big bucks, big bucks fur shur..
so?.. How many of you, if you were still in the age bracket and condition, would , after going through the sh*tholes in service to the Crown and Country, go back in for Cash and a cushy retirement fund??

If only I were < ahem > '20' years younger...

 

[muhandis89]

Rates are not what they used to be,and the local situation is deteriorating all the time.Control Risks had to cut their rates to keep the Brit Embassy job in big B recently.new outfits are popping up all the time.I would not give the majority airtime.

 

[Stonker]

This forum recently lost a member (Sheldrake), a former Gunner to assassins in Iraq. He leaves wife and kids. Search "arrse sheldrake rip"

Not long ago I posted this. Follw the link to the obituary for the lad.

I got my copy of "Sport Parachutist" today, with an Obituary for an ex Red Fred. I never met him, but he was clearly an outstanding young man.

He married in April this year, quit the Army in May, went to Iraq as a bodyguard, and was dead before Remembrance Sunday.

He leaves 3 kids and a widow.

Read it and weep:
http://www.exairborneforces.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1951&sid=bbe1f30ead537196a2c7ba57798644d7

I mean it.

 

[spike7451]

This forum recently lost a member (Sheldrake), a former Gunner to assassins in Iraq. He leaves wife and kids. Search "arrse sheldrake rip"

Not long ago I posted this. Follw the link to the obituary for the lad.

I got my copy of "Sport Parachutist" today, with an Obituary for an ex Red Fred. I never met him, but he was clearly an outstanding young man.

He married in April this year, quit the Army in May, went to Iraq as a bodyguard, and was dead before Remembrance Sunday.

He leaves 3 kids and a widow.

Read it and weep:
http://www.exairborneforces.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1951&sid=bbe1f30ead537196a2c7ba57798644d7

I mean it.

Dont take this the wrong way but with Sheldrakes passing,it's the wrong time for this topic.
I think Stonker will agree.
RIP Simon,

 

[Rocketeer]

Didn't know about Sheldrake.. condolences to friendsand family..

just was curious as I was recently talking to one of my son's buddies [ they served until last week in the Sudan on a UN ops ] and he was considering an ' offer' .. the appeal to him was the ' relaxed ' ROE and, of course, the financial incentives..there seems to be a high level of frustration among a xouple of the Sudanese mission types because of the strict limitation on what they could do ' to help '...

just wondered if this was a good way to do things.. obviously it is not just ' merc work ' but it takes privatization to a whole new level..

 

[California_Tanker]

To answer the original question, not a chance.

If I get injured (Psychologically or physically) while over there wearing Uncle Sam's uniform, the government pays for the treatement of what's left of my body for life through the VA.

If I go over as a private contractor, and get wounded, all that extra up-front-cash I'd have saved had better cover whatever I need, or I'm in serious trouble.

Not to mention also, if I'm attacked as a soldier, I grab the radio and have tanks, helicopters, whatnot come to help me. Who will come quickly to my aid when I call on the CB?

NTM

 

[frenchperson]

would you go back to the sandbox, jungle or whatever as a ' security consultant' ?

right now there are 70,000 [!!] such ' private operatives ' serving in Iraq and a whackload of others in Afghanistan, parts of Africa and points [ Middle ] east. in the employ of ' special security firms ' [ some even with lucrative contracts with the US and other governments ] There are a number of $80 million US a year security firms that didn't exist 2 years ago...

last year this 'business' was worth $ 40 billion in Iraq and there are no ' reliable' figures as to what the rest of the world market generates....

...Big bucks, big bucks fur shur.....

Who are they 'serving' in these locations? Is it themselves? Or the local people? Perhaps it's a lingering allegiance to the crown, or is it a desire to boost their company's profits? Could it be the chance to spread "freedom", or is it down to a sense of democratic duty, (or perhaps they're there to represent a shadowy cadre or one of those mystery cabals you ofen invoke? )

You've mentioned the money / business interests involved, so isn't it a misnomer to use the phrase 'serving in Iraq....', and shouldn't this be reserved for those who are literally serving in Iraq for sh1t money and the crown, or anywhere else?

 

[baldy_git]

It wont be too long before the government starts using these firms to relieve the load on our guys. I dont think you'll get a situation where theyre on the front line but for convoy escort, base security and some specialist tasks i think we'll see them creaping in. Personally i'd rather see the government spend the money on their own troops but if its going to happen i'd rather have ex british forces who can intergrate with us and know how we work. We already spend large amounts of money on civilian companys for work on operations for example Turners (a job that REME and RE can do but dont have the manpower) so why not employ civis to do other jobs.

 

[Cuddles]

Not to mention also, if I'm attacked as a soldier, I grab the radio and have tanks, helicopters, whatnot come to help me. Who will come quickly to my aid when I call on the CB?

CT - if you are working for a privatized military company there is probably less chance that someone will put you in the sh1t from your head shed. As a PMCO you have a lot more freedom of manoeuvre and better ROEs. You also don't get put on the spot as much - unless you monumentally eff it up. Having said that there are some PMCs who lack credibility and do eff it up.

 

[BaldricksBullet]

Very sorry to hear about Sheldrake... I missed that one. Very sorry.

The lure of course is the money, but it also runs a little deeper than that. A great deal of Ex's find that there's nothing out there in civvy street for them, certainly not with the responsibility, success or credibility that they're used to. Many are fit for nothing, but believe they can fly. It's only natural to try to get back to doing the thing you were great at. Problem is that you have to trust all the people you work with and that's not going to be easy. For all its faults the Army is a meritocracy, with hard earned experience providing deep support and is thus a thousand times safer than any commercial venture.

Having worked in the ammunition world, the oportunities to do my thing worldwide have been available for a decade and a half. Not once have I been tempted because I would never know or trust whoever was working ten meters to my side. There are a thousand good reasons to put yourself at risk, but for me, cash isn't one of them.

 

[woodyb]

would you go back to the sandbox, jungle or whatever as a ' security consultant' ?

right now there are 70,000 [!!] such ' private operatives ' serving in Iraq and a whackload of others in Afghanistan, parts of Africa and points [ Middle ] east. in the employ of ' special security firms ' [ some even with lucrative contracts with the US and other governments ] There are a number of $80 million US a year security firms that didn't exist 2 years ago...

last year this 'business' was worth $ 40 billion in Iraq and there are no ' reliable' figures as to what the rest of the world market generates....

...Big bucks, big bucks fur shur.....

Who are they 'serving' in these locations? Is it themselves? Or the local people? Perhaps it's a lingering allegiance to the crown, or is it a desire to boost their company's profits? Could it be the chance to spread "freedom", or is it down to a sense of democratic duty, (or perhaps they're there to represent a shadowy cadre or one of those mystery cabals you ofen invoke? roll )

You've mentioned the money / business interests involved, so isn't it a misnomer to use the phrase 'serving in Iraq....', and shouldn't this be reserved for those who are literally serving in Iraq for sh1t money and the crown, or anywhere else?

maybe not 'serving in iraq', but why do you think this shouldn't be featured on Arrse at all? After all, those of us (in general) that work in Iraq are ex-squaddies, and there are more than a few posts from serving members that are interested in getting out and doing private sector work out here.
Point is, we've all gone through the mill in the forces, had the gash postings/exercises/operations and have moved onto doing private security. So many have, it's a natural progression.
Maybe why there are so many posts on the subject forum for it eh?
Strewth-if you had ruling that only serving mambers could post on arrse you'd lose most of the posters!!

 

[RFUK]

The very first incident I attended with IRT on Telic 7 was a particularly nasty attack which had taken place against a civillian 4x4. I'll spare the details, but 4 young Americans lost their lives that day. It just isn't worth the cash.

At least with the army, you're trying to achieve something.

If you want to earn the cash and don't mind deploying to Iraq, you're much better getting in with the contractors (turners, etc.) who don't leave camp.

 

[Mr_C_Hinecap]

.. the appeal to him was the ' relaxed ' ROE and, of course, the financial incentives..there seems to be a high level of frustration among a xouple of the Sudanese mission types because of the strict limitation on what they could do ' to help '...

just wondered if this was a good way to do things.. obviously it is not just ' merc work ' but it takes privatization to a whole new level..

I have to say - if someone would take a job in a cruddy part of a dangerous part of the world and 'relaxed ROEs' was one of the plus points, I'd not want him near me. Sounds like the sort of reason that attracts the dangerous ones to this sort of work.

 

[woodyb]

The very first incident I attended with IRT on Telic 7 was a particularly nasty attack which had taken place against a civillian 4x4. I'll spare the details, but 4 young Americans lost their lives that day. It just isn't worth the cash.

At least with the army, you're trying to achieve something.

If you want to earn the cash and don't mind deploying to Iraq, you're much better getting in with the contractors (turners, etc.) who don't leave camp.

oohh, no thanks. Have to be STS so i can cabby around on a quad bike dealing with mobile sh1thouses all day!!

 

[subbsonic]

This has been covered on a number of threads this one contains a link to a second one that was started some time before.

So we are certainly covering old ground again on this topic.

My personal view is that the whole PMC thing is a cop-out by the British and American governments to:

a. Save money, or underinvest in their armed forces.
b. Dodge responsibility for the killed and wounded coming back home.

Sadly I dont know how Shelldrake was repatriated. How can anyone say that one brother in arms should be treated any differently from the next ?

IMHO Nick Branic's documentary " shadow company" was made with an objective, non-judgemental perspective. So you have to ask your own questions.

If the whole PMC thing is not about saving money, then why has this "socialist" government not sought to examine the ROE, professional standards, terms and conditions of service, equipment levels of these government contractors.

Why no health and safety executive cover for these British Citizens? Why should there be less oversight and accountability for PMCs than there is for the armed forces?

There is an obvious requirment for trained soldiers to deploy in formation, with weapons and comms to defend against a well-armed and determined enemy.

Why should these ex servicemen NOT be deployed on continuance or as Reservists?

They would have:

- A well established Welfare and benefits package for them and their families.

- An estabished Operational Requirments chain to meet their equipment needs

- A doctrinal chain that captured all best practice ensuring that appropriate individuals were selected, then trained appropriately, formed into established units that were equipped for role and fit for purpose. ( How often do PMCs get an ARU / FFR inspection?)

Please this is not a dig at the blokes, after all they are only taking an opportunity that the British and American Governments have put in front of them. Although those with genuine qualifiactions and experience may sometimes pray for a flying visit by the "Waltfinder General".

If this was Crossmaglen, they would all be flying not driving. So suddenly the threat in South Armagh in the 1980's was a lot greater than the threat in Iraq now??

........................No there just are not enough votes in this are there?

Let's get back to foxhunting; look there's an interesting debate on the 2012 Olympics. BTW How did I come over on that press conference in Washington ?

Now where shall we go for lunch today????

Don't blame the blokes
Don't blame their bosses who cut corners to line their own pockets and those of the Board of Directors.

The bleeding heart readers of the Guardian should perhaps pause a minute and think about who they voted for last time round. Perhaps think about who influenced the Civil Servants, that suggested to the Ministers that this was the way to go?

 

[wellyhead]

Rates are not what they used to be,and the local situation is deteriorating all the time.Control Risks had to cut their rates to keep the Brit Embassy job in big B recently.new outfits are popping up all the time.I would not give the majority airtime.

I was offered a job out there, but I said I couldn't take the drop in pay

Expression on face - Priceless

 

[jimmys_best_mate]

Not for £1,000 a day.

 

[woodyb]

which hardly anyone ever got anyway!! I wish....
Don't believe the press hype (you should know better than that surely) of this fabled '1000 quid a day' job. generally the wages are either spread over a year's salary (ie you get paid when on leave) or on a better daily rate with unpaid leave.
The really big winners are the big corporations (KBR etc) who have really creamed it in.

 

[themaadone]

Well, perhaps would be my answer.

It really depends how badly you want or need the money...

It certainly isn't a career for life.

Look at it this way, in the army you have back up (I laugh cynically), an infrastructure (I laugh cynically) and people who care (this time I raise an eyebrow and admit, that even our top man, Gen. Dannatt is behind us).

As a PSD you are in the twilight zone.

But I ask this question.... does it matter how or where you die?

As a bus driver, a diver, a policeman, a builder, a mechanic?

Or as a PSD earning loads more and with that money going to your widow/er?

At the end of the day, death is death and that is what the game is all about.

 

[woodyb]

This has been covered on a number of threads this one contains a link to a second one that was started some time before.

So we are certainly covering old ground again on this topic.

My personal view is that the whole PMC thing is a cop-out by the British and American governments to:

a. Save money, or underinvest in their armed forces.
b. Dodge responsibility for the killed and wounded coming back home.

Sadly I dont know how Shelldrake was repatriated. How can anyone say that one brother in arms should be treated any differently from the next ?

IMHO Nick Branic's documentary " shadow company" was made with an objective, non-judgemental perspective. So you have to ask your own questions.

If the whole PMC thing is not about saving money, then why has this "socialist" government not sought to examine the ROE, professional standards, terms and conditions of service, equipment levels of these government contractors.

Why no health and safety executive cover for these British Citizens? Why should there be less oversight and accountability for PMCs than there is for the armed forces?

There is an obvious requirment for trained soldiers to deploy in formation, with weapons and comms to defend against a well-armed and determined enemy.

Why should these ex servicemen NOT be deployed on continuance or as Reservists?

They would have:

- A well established Welfare and benefits package for them and their families.

- An estabished Operational Requirments chain to meet their equipment needs

- A doctrinal chain that captured all best practice ensuring that appropriate individuals were selected, then trained appropriately, formed into established units that were equipped for role and fit for purpose. ( How often do PMCs get an ARU / FFR inspection?)


not too sure how to answer this one without laughing. let me get this straight, you'd make us all come back as reservists as part of britmil right?! Ok......

1) We've all done our time thank you very much and enjoy not getting treated like a muppet.

2)The thought of doing FP for days on end is mind numbing. Just ask the lads at BAS what they think of it. or any squaddie what he thinks of stagging on.... after all, thats what most of the last load of reservists at BAS were doing til the jocks have rocked up to take over.

3) Some of us get to do jobs that would require at minimal level a rank of major. It's not all 'trunk monkey' work you know. now I'd be back to stagging on?! No thanks my clock runs forwards not backwards. maybe if Army retention had been any good then we would still be in. But it wasn't & we aren't! Plus i was out long before this all kicked off in 03 (though I was here in '91) so haven't jumped on the bandwagon.

Please this is not a dig at the blokes, after all they are only taking an opportunity that the British and American Governments have put in front of them. Although those with genuine qualifiactions and experience may sometimes pray for a flying visit by the "Waltfinder General".

If this was Crossmaglen, they would all be flying not driving. So suddenly the threat in South Armagh in the 1980's was a lot greater than the threat in Iraq now??

........................No there just are not enough votes in this are there?

Let's get back to foxhunting; look there's an interesting debate on the 2012 Olympics. BTW How did I come over on that press conference in Washington ?

Now where shall we go for lunch today????

Don't blame the blokes
Don't blame their bosses who cut corners to line their own pockets and those of the Board of Directors.

The bleeding heart readers of the Guardian should perhaps pause a minute and think about who they voted for last time round. Perhaps think about who influenced the Civil Servants, that suggested to the Ministers that this was the way to go?