Should we stop commissioning RDs?

#1
Well the pin has been pulled, but before the boots and haircut brigade go ape have a read below, I am not here to stir sh!t merely point out that sense in streamlining our LE fraternity into a more useful bunch.

Firstly, what job can an RD LE do? They can be OC Spt/HQ Sqn (can be done by a DE), they can be an MTO (can be done by just about anybody (I know two units where an Ex tech and Ex Op are MTWOs so how tough can the job be?)). They can be RCMO, but how many times have you seen an Ex RD RMCO who either hates the everbody/supervisory trades or doesn't have the social or management skills to talk in a respectful manner to those who seek their guidance? They could of course be a family/welfare officer but as per the last sentence why would be put someone who has no approachability in a position where they would have to deal with welfare/family issues?

Secondly, economics. We are shrinking rapidly and to be blunt there is no room for deadwood. We may soon see our DE's increased and many will not have a technical/operating background so we have to make sure as a Corps we have enough trade expertise coming through (how many of the RD community bin their trade knowledge at the moment they go boots and haircuts?).

Thirdly, adaptability. Whereas those in the technical trade would have the ability to do the MTO/OC Sqn/RCMO/QM roles, could this be said of the RD community? How many of them can step up to TOT/Traffic/SO2/3 Staff roles etc?

This may seem a little cruel to finger point at men and women who will have given most, if not all, of their adult lives to the Corps but I am afraid we have to adapt to our chaning shape and size and as such here is an area where we can start. Again, this is not an anti-RD attack, I think it is just common sense.

Discuss.
 
#3
It's the Army. Not the Girl Guides. Boots and Haircuts have a place. You will need senior boots and haircuts people or they will not go that way earlier in their careers.

Do you honestly see a 37-yr old YofS having career aspirations as MTO or OC HQ Sqn?

On the other hand, the QMs needs a QM. Who knows what he's doing. Who's been an SQMS and an RQMS. Not a FofS who wouldn't know one side of a clothing store from the other.

Just my 2c. Ex-RTG & tech here, never had any time for boots and haircuts, but it does have a place. Otherwise we'd be the RAF.
Roadster, I don't disagree with what you have written but what I said was about LEs not serving Warrants. I wouldn't expect the post of RSM or SSM to disappear, we still need that level of discipline, but do we really need an RSM to be an RSM as an LE or isn't it better that we commission someone who has a wider employability? I am also aware what you say about trades such as QM/MTO but as is happenning with RCMO at the moment we are getting traffics and the like filling the posts and whilst an RCMO post isn't like a QM/MTO post, who actually does the work in a QM or MT section (RQMS and MTWO) with the LE officer in charge and steering the ship but certainly not practicioning.

I just think we have to change. After a recent brief from Glasgow, where they laid it down that the RD community should start seeing themselves as senior tradesmen in their unit, I think we have to see that as the way the corps is going.
 
#4
LE officers shouldn't be getting involved in RD matters.

Boots and haircuts are for Sgt Majors and Tp SSgts.

SQMS, FofS, YofS et al tend to have more on their mind than 'sidies half way down the ear'. And certainly the LEs should.

Maybe in the wider army, but certainly the Corps I feel we should be using a lot more SMEs, and encouraging such streaming.

The Driver Storeman for example. Brilliant merger (in a lot of ways) but as they reach the rank of Sgt I feel a specialisation should be required, MT SSgts and SQMS (T)/(A) slots should be awarded to those who really KNOW there beans. Promotion to MTWO or RQMS in due course, with selection at WO2 for advancement to QM and further employment in the G4/wheels side of life. Both f these streams NEES SMEs. To either keep track of the myriad of kit we now hold or to circumnavigate the the rules and regs on driving requires people who are not just stopping off on the ir way to RSM.

FoS and YoS streams as per.

Same for ED.

Now that we have Appointment boards for SSgts this should be an easy solution, to put the experts in to the PIDs so they can provide the best return. The WO2 in trade should actually be quite simiple to implement.

Trg WOs selected according tot heir experience ie quals and time in training slots.

SSMs and RSMs can be selected from the rest. Encourage commissioning from WO2s and leave WO1s as 'fallow' then we may get RSMs that have the spine to say no to the latest CORGI from the Big Bag of Shit Ideas.
 
#5
Not this thread again........

Signed Slipperman
(ex RD/LE etc)
 
#6
Nothing against RD LE's but I do wonder what they bring to the party. I'm told the current crop of TOT RCMO's put the others to shame but I haven't had any personal dealings with them. As a technical Corps though, why should we continue to promote people that left their trade many moons ago, how can they give career advice etc? Slightly off topic, but what direction does the Corps RSM really provide to us beyond keeping lads in line?
Finally, give me an RD LE officer fighting my corner over a lot of the DE dross I have encountered in recent years!
 
#7
Nothing against RD LE's but I do wonder what they bring to the party. I'm told the current crop of TOT RCMO's put the others to shame but I haven't had any personal dealings with them. As a technical Corps though, why should we continue to promote people that left their trade many moons ago, how can they give career advice etc? Slightly off topic, but what direction does the Corps RSM really provide to us beyond keeping lads in line?
Finally, give me an RD LE officer fighting my corner over a lot of the DE dross I have encountered in recent years!
A bit 'all over there post'.

You start by saying that 'what do RD LE's bring to the party?' and end by saying give you an LE fighting your corner over recent DE's. I think you answered your own question. To me, LE's bring experience and common sense. I have recently served in a Unit where a change of Squadron Commander (DE) took the Squadron from the best in the Unit, to the worst without a shadow of a doubt.

As per the Corps' RSM bit, SOinC's man on the ground? He gets his trade info from the SME's within SOinC, apparently thats what they are there for.........
 
#8
Heidtheba,
the original post questions the requirement to commission RD's. I took this to mean 'as opposed to Supervisors'. Of course a 40yr old Captain will have a more level head than a 26yr old. But in a technical Corps when units require technical direction what does a commissioned Powerman/Linemen (who left his trade 8 - 10 years previously) etc have to offer over a commissioned Supervisor?

I suppose the best thing to do would be stringent testing where those with both a technical AND luddite aptitude would get through and poor candidates from either stream would fail.
 
#9
I didn't know there was a whole crop of TOT RCMOs... and I am glad it worked out well. Ther were a few RD types disgruntled that 'their' slots had been taken by the ex-FofS.
 
#10
Well the pin has been pulled, but before the boots and haircut brigade go ape have a read below, I am not here to stir sh!t merely point out that sense in streamlining our LE fraternity into a more useful bunch.

Firstly, what job can an RD LE do? They can be OC Spt/HQ Sqn (can be done by a DE), they can be an MTO (can be done by just about anybody (I know two units where an Ex tech and Ex Op are MTWOs so how tough can the job be?)). They can be RCMO, but how many times have you seen an Ex RD RMCO who either hates the everbody/supervisory trades or doesn't have the social or management skills to talk in a respectful manner to those who seek their guidance? They could of course be a family/welfare officer but as per the last sentence why would be put someone who has no approachability in a position where they would have to deal with welfare/family issues?

Secondly, economics. We are shrinking rapidly and to be blunt there is no room for deadwood. We may soon see our DE's increased and many will not have a technical/operating background so we have to make sure as a Corps we have enough trade expertise coming through (how many of the RD community bin their trade knowledge at the moment they go boots and haircuts?).

Thirdly, adaptability. Whereas those in the technical trade would have the ability to do the MTO/OC Sqn/RCMO/QM roles, could this be said of the RD community? How many of them can step up to TOT/Traffic/SO2/3 Staff roles etc?

This may seem a little cruel to finger point at men and women who will have given most, if not all, of their adult lives to the Corps but I am afraid we have to adapt to our chaning shape and size and as such here is an area where we can start. Again, this is not an anti-RD attack, I think it is just common sense.

Discuss.
You are not an RD guy are you?
 
#11
A bit 'all over there post'.

You start by saying that 'what do RD LE's bring to the party?' and end by saying give you an LE fighting your corner over recent DE's. I think you answered your own question. To me, LE's bring experience and common sense. I have recently served in a Unit where a change of Squadron Commander (DE) took the Squadron from the best in the Unit, to the worst without a shadow of a doubt.

As per the Corps' RSM bit, SOinC's man on the ground? He gets his trade info from the SME's within SOinC, apparently thats what they are there for.........
Now that is a whole new subject HTB the SMEs within the SOinC!
 
#13
He gets his trade info from the SME's within SOinC, apparently thats what they are there for.........
There are SME's at SOinC?
 
#16
As a technical Corps though, why should we continue to promote people that left their trade many moons ago, how can they give career advice etc?
But a DE OC Sqn and/or CO is expected to give career advice as the 1RO/2RO - if they are not au fait with with their people, with the Corps and with the wider Army's priorities, then they are simply not doing their job. You do not need to a Class One to give well-informed career advice to other Class One's. Ulitmately, the SJAR/OJAR is the only career advice paid heed to at Glasgow - the board's cannot consider much else.
 
#17
Of course there is a place for LE officers in the Corps. Do you seriously think that the Corps would be a better place without LE officers ? Young Officers need seasoning and that's not just the responsibility of the Troop Staffy in the garages, but it's also the job of the LE officers to show and educate the YO in the Mess so they get a handle on what sort of person they are commanding.

Of course a "proper" Officer could run the MT, but it's hardly going to be a good retention post for a young thruster is it? And having a YO as Families Officer is just laughable.

If I was the OP, I'd be thinking more on how the Corps could shed the useless Passed Over Majors out there. There's some real shit still drawing wages and commanding **** all.
 
#18
Not this thread again........

Signed Slipperman
(ex RD/LE etc)
Nothing to do with me this time, and a slightly different argument from mine.

I'm not going to try to divert the thread with my views on RD WOs, but I can see a role for LEs who are not 'technical' SMEs. The idea of specialist LEs in the QM, MTO and UWO roles, among others, is quite attractive. It would mean, though, that the people concerned would have to carry out their trade all the way up to WO2 or WO1 and thus remain valuable contributors to the unit effort throughout their enlisted service. I can see room for a bit of conglomeration, just like with YofS and FofS, with proper training as a support supervisor (for want of a better title).
 
#19
Of course there is a place for LE officers in the Corps. Do you seriously think that the Corps would be a better place without LE officers ? Young Officers need seasoning and that's not just the responsibility of the Troop Staffy in the garages, but it's also the job of the LE officers to show and educate the YO in the Mess so they get a handle on what sort of person they are commanding.

Of course a "proper" Officer could run the MT, but it's hardly going to be a good retention post for a young thruster is it? And having a YO as Families Officer is just laughable.

If I was the OP, I'd be thinking more on how the Corps could shed the useless Passed Over Majors out there. There's some real shit still drawing wages and commanding **** all.
Commissioning of LEs wasn't being discussed... the question was should we commission RDs at all, in reduced numbers or indeed increase the numbers.
 
#20
Nothing to do with me this time, and a slightly different argument from mine.

I'm not going to try to divert the thread with my views on RD WOs, but I can see a role for LEs who are not 'technical' SMEs. The idea of specialist LEs in the QM, MTO and UWO roles, among others, is quite attractive. It would mean, though, that the people concerned would have to carry out their trade all the way up to WO2 or WO1 and thus remain valuable contributors to the unit effort throughout their enlisted service. I can see room for a bit of conglomeration, just like with YofS and FofS, with proper training as a support supervisor (for want of a better title).
Has this not already been reviewed? Unfortunately, we don't see too many MT's falling over because the MT SSgt can't cope. There simply isn't the requirement or the RLC / Engrs already own it. The strongest arguement is for Telemechs to have a supervisory role. But all the SCIDA stuff (almost all anyway) is being covered by the civil service at less cost.
 

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