Should we go to war?

Bencher

Old-Salt
its a waist of time going in, we never seem to finish what we start or should i say, what the americans start, the falklands was finished in victory, but the first gulf war wasnt, neither afghanistan, this one probably wont either then 10 yrs down the line we will be cracking on again !!!
 
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error_unknown

Guest
It seems that we are not allowed to disagree. I am afraid that some of your logic escpes me. We are going to attack Iraq because he has transgressed UN santions. We will attack even if we are not authorised by the UN. Disregarding the UN and attacking a country because they have disregarded the UN?????
Hmmmm Rogue state in the middle east? Nuclear capability? Human rights violations a go go. OK so when do we invade Israel??
I, like all my peers, will cheerfully go where I am sent and do the best I can in all circumstances. I would serve HM forces honestly and faithfully but don't expect me to swallow some BS if I am being spun a yarn by TB and GB
 
Aiii!
thumbsup.gif
 
Kabous,
While that situation, and it's obvious hypocracy exists, there will never be peace in the Middle East, absolutely never.

Further to that, I'd like to draw your attention to the latest round of Islamic literature doing the rounds in the area of the Secret rebel Base.....

www.1924.org   from Hizb ut-Tahrir Britain, a mobilisation(!) campaign in London,Manchester, Birmingham and Bradford.

No website there as yet, but I'll type what this leaflet says

Your Brothers and Sisters are calling.
The drums of war are beating stronger day by day. It is an indisputable fact, that this war will be no more than a colonial war aimed at colonising the region and it's resources -especially the oil resources.

All muslims are aware that the Western colonialist states want to establish another subserviant puppet regime - toppling one ruthless dictator for their "democratic dictator"

It is clear for all to see that America and Britain are not motivated by Humanitarian concerns, but rather their interests. This is because they are capitalist states -death and destruction are a small price to pay for their material interests.

The muslims must rise up and become active in assisting their brothers and sisters, who are an integral part of this Ummah* For this Ummah is one, her Iman is one, her land is one and she stands united against the designs  of the Kuffar**. At this time, we must ensure that our actions are in accordance with islam, and Islam alone.
O Muslims! It is Haram*** to lobby the Western Governments so that they can establish their rotten solutions on our lands. It is haram to seek United nations intervention in our lands. The British Government is a colonial government, with colonial designs. To call for her assistance, help and solutions is a call to Taghoot**** that will lead to further humiliation of Muslims in this life, and humiliation in the hereafter.

The correct work is to call, with all our efforts and might, for the removal of all governments in the Islamic world and the immediate unification under one state, the Khilafah***** state. It is corrupt governments that allow America and britain to use their airbases, seaports and land bases. Without the subservient compliance of these Muslim rulers, America and britain could never attack.

O Muslims! The correct work is to what we call you to. Your fate as an Ummah is intertwined with the fate of all Muslims. Your allegiance as an Ummah, is to your Ummah, not the british Government. So resist the urge to participate with the Kuffur government, to join the labour party, or to dine at the table of the murderers of your Muslim Brothers and Sisters.

Work with those who work sincerely to unify this Ummah and bring her to a position where she will challenge the hegemony of the Western Capitalist states the world over.

*   Ummah - The Nation of Islam
**  Kuffar - pl. of Kafir, a disbeliever in God.
***   Haram - Unclean, that which will defile.
**** Taghoot - Seduction, a person or action that leads to straying from the faith.
***** Kalifah - The state of Mohammed the prophet

Get switched on Guys and Girls, just how many fronts do you think we're going to be fighting on at H-Hour+1 second?
 

Line_Grunt

War Hero
Oh well, at least the TA inf will get a role  :D - even if it will be guarding airfields and bases.
 

YeoTanky

Old-Salt
What everybody seems to have forgotten is the silent majority. People who respond to phone ins, polls etc. have an axe to grind.  The rest of the population is not interested in the whys and wherefores and would certainly not wish to appear on a chat show debate to dsicuss the issues.

The press sell papers etc. on the back of scare stories designed to whip up fear in the same sort of people who blame television for making thier children in to drive by shooters.

The war is fundamentally right, in as much as that there is a an evil regime intent upon causing continued misery to its own and potentially other people.

There is alot of talk of how they averarage Iraqi will fight and of how 70, 000 students have been given AK47s.  They will fold as they did last time because they want to get rid of Saddam as well.  What we must not do is let them down again as we did after GW1.

Our soldiers will be needing all of our support.  Especially when they come home.  Last time we got home and had to watch daily reports of massacres in South and North Iraq.  Lets get in there and finish a job that should have been finished 12 years ago.
 
Yeo,

Iwouldn't be so convinced about them folding as they did last time.

Granted they want rid of Saddam but they would sooner have him in power than some spam oil baron.

Also When we pushed them out of Kuwait they weren't defending thier own turf, homes and families... they will this time. Also arming another 70,000 men isn't the action of a man frightened for his own life at the hands of his own nation

This simply hasn't been thought out.

How about this for a scenario

Saddam takes us up on our offer of a couple of £Billion and exile in USSR, Libya or Iran if allowed. Then as a gift to his nation allows them to vote for his successor, again keeping the Spams out of the equation, wonder what Bushes reaction would be to that? Saddam remains a hero of the Iraqi people and his murals and statues stay up and remain unvandalised and graffitied
 
Just been brought a second leaflet, this one is a tad more direct, and calls on Muslim youth to mobilise.

I won't repeat the whole thing here,it makes scary enough reading, but here's the last line

Activate. Gather your resources. Raise your determination. For Allah will hold us to account on the day from which there is no return.

This organisation also intends to picket/protest/shout rude Arabic slogans at the Saudi Embassy in London on Saturday, so maybe they're not all bad? lol Oh dear :(
 

YeoTanky

Old-Salt
It all reminds me of the crap that we got last time:

The Mother of All battles.

More like the mother of all battle runs!

never underestimate your enemy but it is equally foolish to overestimate his capabilities.

One thing is for sure he has is and is capable of using chemical weapons (as demonstrated on his own people).

We were also told that Afghanistan would turn into another Vietnam - when we invaded thier sovereign territory. So what went wrong - did all the Yank haters get it wrong?

We are told that the Iraqis will defend thier turf because look what they did against Iran - two sets of military incompetants who fought each other into an inevitable stalemate.  They preferred to chuck Arty at each other than get stuck in and when they did they preferred human wave type attacks to any thing involving tactics, planning or technical skill.

I do not remember the Iraqis defending much of the Iraq we all ploughed through on our way to Kuwait.

So lets try and keep all of this in perspective, where have all his officers beeen training for the last 12 years - what experience do they have (Iran - Iraq war was in 80's)  Any General that has shown much skill has been shot as a potential threat to Saddam.
 
Why should we waste UK military forces lives and resources to satisfy the wunderlust of President Bush Jr!

Sorry Skin

Your post modified to protect an ID.

No names, no big clues to ID's , especially over this sort of incident.


PTP
 
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error_unknown

Guest
[quote
The war is fundamentally right, in as much as that there is a an evil regime intent upon causing continued misery to its own and potentially other people.

Dude
I can't believe what you are saying here. If the basis for attacking a country is that they have a crappy human rights record and are abusing their power then Iraq should take a ticket and get in line. there are dozens of regimes 10 times filthier than Iraq. We are dealing with most f them and dealing arms with a few. Wake up. I am a bit cynical, I agree,  but all this moral care welfare shit just bores me. That said I like a bit of OK coral as much as the next man and am waiting to see what the war fairy leaves under my pillow.
 
Subsonic

Ref your points about what happens at ENDEX to Iraq.  It would appear that OPSEC has zero to do with it.  There really does seem to be a bit murky.  Unless you know something the rest of us do not?

Suspectr however that this is one of the main reasons we've been brought on board at this early stage.  History indicates that we have somewhat of a better track record at this than the SPAMS.

That said, since I will be feeling the heat fairly soon, I'll let you know when we get back.

Regards

DM
 
Ref your points about what happens at ENDEX to Iraq.  It would appear that OPSEC has zero to do with it.  There really does seem to be a bit murky.  Unless you know something the rest of us do not?

It is very murky, while we're not getting told anything by Government, I can tell you the message I'm getting from Iraqis in exile and recent refugees via their relatives still there

There will be a military occupation, with Western forces in position for a very long time, and not necessairily under UN auspices. America will institute some Colonial Governors, in collaboration (That's how they see it) with local Apparatchiks (Kurds) to oversee the parts of the North and South that have the oil, and the rest can go hang. They firmly believe, there will be an influx into the centres of population by refugees, of all faiths, which will actually INFLAME a delicate balancing act, that Saddam has actually been keeping in the air (Admittedley by Force, coercion, fear and midnight one way taxi rides). The Ba'ath party propoganda machine, has of course been pumping up the volume on those rumors.

Astonishing to remember, that predjudice exists amongst Iraqis too. They fear, that the occupiers will have no time for local sensitivities, which will in turn lead to an insurrection. They don't necessairily want Saddam in charge, but they don't want no bleedin' Kurds/Shi'as/Sunnis (delete as appropriate according to faith) running the show either.

They would like the idea of a democratically elected Government running Iraq, and they would like to know what is going on. So far, they can see no evidence of what we plan, for after the (allegedly planned) invasion
It makes them scared, especially when Saddam has been telling them, that the Americans hate Islam, and will foul their temples, and seize their goods etc etc etc, and there has been a lot of talk of resisting. But as Yeo says, it might be all talk. As you say Yeo, we tramped over a lot of Iraq  without oppositon, but then again, it was over the bits with not a lot but sand and goats for the most part, and not worth defending.
What concerns me, is a lot of the people expressing their fears, are educated individuals, and I mean very.

The Governments lack of positive media ops is not only strengthening resistance to what may well be a necessary operation, it is also strengthening the doubts and resentment, amongst the exiles, who we should be getting on side , to spread the good news back home.

As I've said before, if you are hearing exactly what you want to hear from your "Intelligence sources" then you're definitely paying them enough. Especially as the same intelligence sources "Who must be protected at all costs" and the reason we know that Saddam has WMD's allegedly, somehow got fcuking amnesia, when it came to informing their paymasters that he had moved them. Smells like a dysentric anchovies bottom .
 
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error_unknown

Guest
GWB claimed to want to rid the world of terrorism, the goes off on a tangient and guns for Saddam, still haven't got to grips with this yet........


would be nice if the spams stopped funding it in our backyard then!  :mad:
 
PTP

I must return again to pay credit to the weight of your deposits in this forum.  Only time precludes me from addressing more that one of your precepts today.
This is however, perhaps more for the benefit of other readers.


As I've said before, if you are hearing exactly what you want to hear from your "Intelligence sources" then you're definitely paying them enough. Especially as the same intelligence sources "Who must be protected at all costs"

Inside the Govts paper on Iraqi WMD, the Government defines 3 distinct sources of intelligence.  
http://www.ukonline.gov.uk/featurenews/iraqdossier.pdf

the services also recognise a fourth source of information: unevaluated open source material.

From a single service perspective readers may wish to know that 99.99 percent of intelligence derived directly from human sources is NOT provided by those seeking financial renumeration.  The remaining percentile are usually handed over from other Units who suppose that money is the only motivator.  These individuals are usually shown to the door.

Anyone who has done EPC will be familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs.  

As well as Revenge, Envy, Greed and Hatred;
Truth, Fair Play, Justice and the Prosper of Good over Evil also causes people of all races and creeds to risk passing information on to our Army and other agencies.  This applied in The Malayan Emergency, the Balkans, Africa, the Carribean, Pacific Rim and even during the Falklands, as it does today.

A significant number of those concerned about "source protection" are perhaps without broadband or dial up access, and frightened for their lives for most of the time.  They will rarely be able to represent themselves here, yet alone enjoy this freedom of speech.

In NI, the Balkans and GW1 these brave individuals have helped us to inflict attrition on our adversaries and keep us, and sometimes the police and the public safe.  A well known 3*** has described these people as "my force multiplier".

Unlike most of us; they seldom sleep safe in their beds at night. They never know when they may face the regional equivalent of a visit to that strange address in the Distilleries, where the house is always empty, but the bath is always full of cold water, and the drill is always charged up.  They dread that, like others, they may leave there on a free taxi ride.
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2710867.stm

Saddam briefs his generals

One commander said his unit had trained walking fully equipped and had succeeded in covering nearly 50 miles in only 17 hours with two hours rest.
The Iraqi president said this was not enough.
Saddam is putting his faith in trench warfare again
They would have to increase their speed because they could be asked to infiltrate enemy lines on foot at a specific place and would need to return the same night.
"In the daytime," he was quoted as saying, "all eyes discover you."
He also spoke of training being given to all Iraqis - from "shepherds in the desert" to farmers - in dealing with any soldiers who were airdropped on Iraqi territory


Oh I can just see it now

Iraqi Commander: "Excellency, I am please to report, that the troops can cover 50 miles in 17 hours

Saddam Hussein : Good but they can do better

IC: Better Excellency?

SH: Yes better, 50 miles in 17 hours, are you training Girls? Bismillah, in my day,Pull up a goatskin, we had to march 50 miles in 10 hours, during daytime, and you know how hot it gets, with the old style helmet, and the imperialist M1 bundooks , and the uniforms of rough wool and the boots?And if any of us came in behind the CQMS, it was remedial PT and no mistake  - By Shaitan,those were the days, you never had it so easy those were the days, not like now , Aye Wallah all these kids want to do is live in imperialist trainers and play computer games all day. I tell you , what we need is a war........
 
PTP
I must return again to pay credit to the weight of your deposits in this forum.  Only time precludes me from addressing more that one of your precepts today.
This is however, perhaps more for the benefit of other readers

Hahaaa Sub, very good, but I suspect, not intended to be at all flattering :)

The bulk of the last post, was reported speech, as reported to me, and others by exiles, dissidents and refugee type peeps, and forwarded to the appropriate desks.They undoubtedly have things to fear, as they still have family and relatives inside Iraq.

From a single service perspective readers may wish to know that 99.99 percent of intelligence derived directly from human sources is NOT provided by those seeking financial renumeration.  The remaining percentile are usually handed over from other Units who suppose that money is the only motivator.  These individuals are usually shown to the door.

Really, 99.99%? That is interesting, so we only pay, or offer other incentives for .1% of information received?

Therefore the reasoning is that 99.9% of the information received is reliable?

I would have said the figure of .1%was significantly higher than that Subsonic, wouldn't you? Especially with our friends across the pond.

There is no question, that there are some very brave, and highly motivated people out there, who do it for the reasons you mention, and they are essential. However, there does seem to be an information gap, as to where Saddam is actually keeping his WMD's at this point. UNMOVIC asked the Americans for their intelligence regarding these sites, they have investigated and found nothing. Therefore, if these sources are first class, then Saddam has moved the WMD's in recent times.If the sources are corrupt, or in fact operated by Iraqi counter-intelligence then have we got the real picture?

Intelligence rarely offers a complete account of activities which are designed to remain concealed. The nature of Saddam’s regime makes Iraq a difficult target
for the intelligence services. Intelligence, however, has provided important insights into Iraqi programmes and Iraqi military thinking. Taken together with
what is already known from other sources, this intelligence builds our understanding of Iraq’s capabilities and adds significantly to the analysis already
in the public domain. But intelligence sources need to be protected, and this
limits the detail that can be made available.

The report also mentions Dr. Rihab Taha as someone they would dearly like to interview.
http://asia.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/01/27/sprj.irq.bio.scientist/
Now I have skimmed the document link provided by yourself, and there are 2 glaring omissions. The first, that the USA supplied WMD's to Iraq, via Rumsfeld according to recently declassified documents (ooooops butterfingers, that'll teach you to threaten our agency)
2. The CNN report mentions the UN holding substantial amounts of data re. this womans experiments.
Since 1995, the notes of her experiments with bacteria and viruses have been locked away at U.N. headquarters in New York, part of a stash of thousands of documents and videotapes detailing Iraq's biological and chemical weapons programs.

Or shall we all just trust in the fact that all the agencies know exactly what Saddam has got, know where it is, but just won't offer a conclusive smoking gun for their own reasons, and is this THE report, largely constructed from IISS suppositions and theories, that Blair brandished as definitive proof?
I am NOT for one second implying my sources are good, and JIC sources are crap. Intelligence comes from a bigger picture, and many many parts make up the whole. My small part, is recent intel , concerned with Iraq as it is today from people who have lived there in recent times.In this whole hotch-potch of information, there is the truth, or certainly enough truth to help in some small part in nailing Saddam. Disinformation is a valuable tool, but it is a double-edged tool. I am not saying the information we are gleaning is any good, I don't know, I'm not living in Tikrit or Baghdad or Sammarra or Karbala, but it may be of some benefit in the overall picture.
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2711859.stm

        Iraq will defy UN, says Blair

Tony Blair has told the BBC he does not believe that Saddam Hussein will comply with UN demands to disarm.
The UK prime minister said he wanted a second UN resolution to authorise a potential war with Iraq - but repeated his pledge to contemplate action in the face of "an unreasonable veto"

Do we know, or do we have a definition of what these "Unreasonable veto" grounds are yet?
 
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