Should we go to war?

I just don't think that serving soldiers (and I emphasise serving) should whine on about politics when a crisis emerges.  They should have considered the possibilities long before and either not joined or left when they had the chance.  I respect your opinion as I do those of others posted on this subject here and elsewhere.

Bravo Sir!

I am roughly with MDN on this one and I fully agree with the point made above.

To be brutally honest, when I was still in (pull up a sandbag ;D ), I didn't really give a t0ss about the politics behind the orders. I had joined to do a job, that job is what was requested of me, therefore I went to do it.

Sounds a bit "Nuremburg defence" I know, but that's just the way it was. I didn't question NI, Grapple or Granby (won't count Cyprus ;D )  because I didn't really give that much thought to the why's, just the how’s.

We can whinge all we want when we leave, as me and MDN have proved :p
 
Scribbler

I understand that the squaddie generally shuts up and puts up, lets not forget soldiers get to vote too.

I thought a democracy was a government for of and by the people, therefore why are they not listening to the people who make up the democracy?

Public opinion is against it, most of the media and press report that the majority are against it, even most of the military on various polls and forums are against it, are we a democracy or are we falling in line with a spam with a grudge because a wog upset his daddy twelve years ago, If nobody has the balls to tell Dubya where to get of, get me his number.......

The only thing that could stir me into going on this one would be the thought of a meeting oppurtunity for old mates and colleagues, it now appears that will happen at thier funerals :mad:
 
then, and only then, will I change my sig! ;D ;D ;D

But don't you like mine better? ;D

iraq.jpg
 
Public opinion is against it, most of the media and press report that the majority are against it, even most of the military on various polls and forums are against it, are we a democracy or are we falling in line with a spam with a grudge because a wog upset his daddy twelve years ago

Whilst I totally agree with the above, this little shindig has now become self perpetuating.

Thanks to president Bliars sucking up to George dubblya, we are now tarred with the same brush as the spams. Even if we bail out at this late stage, the mad mullahs are not going to have a pow wow and say "oh well, we'll leave the Brits alone now".

We have become an even bigger target than we were before, so, we get stuck in a catch 22 situation.

Do we do nothing, even though reports tonight indicate that the fcukers that they caught in Spain got the hardware from Iraq and were planning to attack the UK, in the hope that we will no longer be a target of islamics who are supported by madman insane, or do we go and kick his nuts in?

Bliar has gotten us into this and we aint going to get out of it, no matter which way we turn.

Unfortunately, I can only see one answer (and that’s only a short term one) and that is to go in and remove him, put a western compliant gov in place and remove one source of support and funding for the islamic hordes who wish to do us all harm.

After that, there’s only about another 25 countries and 2 billion people to worry about ;D

iraq.jpg
 
:-/ :-/In some respects one could say that the war  12 years ago has only just started to show results in mainland UK.  Why coz YOU SOLDIER BLUE are off to the gulf again and who is it breaking in to almost every shed garaqge and house including your nanas and parents house, robbing them of all, pissing up your photo of you in your best Nr 2 dress and then smashing it on the floor... asylum seekers and refugees is the answer..where do they come from Kosovo,Iraq,plus all the other countries politicaly distrupted bythe UN and its pals.British Soldier slow down , calm down and if only the government could say the same....
 
:-[ :-[Hey gents just of intersest a mate of mine has recently been loading  ships somewhere in northern germany, cop this..the convoys turn up, get parked up under supervision of RLC movement controllers and the vehicles await loading to the ship.  Anyway we know from that small snippet of info that the vehicle keys should be left in the the vehicle.  Not according to a certain 7 TPT REGT Sgt who decides to take his L/rover keys with him back to his unit lines.  Words connot describe the phrases used by REME trying to get the key lock off.  (not easy on the new l/rovers). Any way i hope you enjoy your new post Corporal...Think ON  Think what you try to preach .. Think maybe  POHR now..
 
British Soldier slow down , calm down

Well, that would sort of work if the British Army was a democracy and took a vote on everything they did.

But if that was the case, war would have been declared on the French, Bad CO would be PM, the Starship Troopers rule of voting would be compulsory (please God, let that happen one day, life would be so much more fun) and women would be forced to have their heads genetically modified so that they could balance 7 pints on top simultaneously.

Meanwhile, in the real world ;D
 
B liar is too frightened of losing face with the petrol tanks than anything else, he jumped on this roller coaster when the 757 called short finals for the WTC

Tragedy maybe, not before time that terrorism was brought to the spams front door, after all where was joe spam at Warrenpoint, manchester, canarywarf......he was at city bank pumping money in to the Irish kitty.

Who gives a monkies what the spams think of us, let them start it, if they struggle we'll join in later on, bit like they did in the two great wars

ORG off thread, but I modified mrs Donuts head with a vice and a wood chisel, she can know rest two full pints on her head, work the stove and give fine head all at once. ;D
 
Armageddon didn't strike when we went into Afganistan because the place needed sorting after 9/11 and we had a clear goal which was to capture OBL and his Taliban cronies.  Who are you going to put cross hairs on in Iraq, anyone wearing a lab coat that posses a chemistry set?

I think yr comments are directed @ my post not CGS.  My point about Coercion is, as in Afghanistan, the indignous opposition forces also have a part to play.  
  • They know who these folks are and I would suggest that they would rather be making the life saving drugs their country needs, than CB agents.
  • An Iraqi "Northern Alliance" probablly knows they only need to topple a Ba'ath minority for the deck of cards to collapse.
  • In WW2 it was the boys in white coats who were brought back to US and set NASA up.
they will be debriefed in the Marriott no camp X ray

And as for saying that this is an area for the media to use info to throw back at us, well if you feel that strongly about it, why don't you start your own little dictatorship and close the site down until this has all blown over.
Now you are trying to put words in my mouth.  A well known Info Ops ploy.  All I am suggesting is that people think about what they post.  I come from a newsprint family background and may have more bitter experience of the cost of freedom of speech than others.  

This forum is universally accesible,  If and when there is welfare internet, I reckon it is a major factor to maintaining morale.  As  there are perhaps more guests than users, many more see it than members alone

2 barrels of Ricin in Spain? Yep, it's got Saddam written all over it.  Apparantly the Americans have a 5000 page dossier providing proof that Maddass personally mixed it himself in his kitchen.
Again, your spin not mine.  I'm not suggesting there is smoking gun type linkage between the two.  However AQ will certainly act in sympathy with anyone who opposes SPAMS.  

I don't have access to the JIC assessment, but as a former strategic CT analyst I am aware that this would not be the first time we may have been confronted by state sponsored terrorism.  I'm not saying it'd definitely 5addam.....he is still a tyrant who must Go!
 
Scribbler, this isn't an argument aimed at you

You make a point about us having to have faith in the government of the day, and trusting them to do the right thing.

Hypothetically , what would happen if this faith was lost and the government of the day was no longer trusted to do the right thing, what if the government of the day had backed us into a corner and couldn't get out.

I didn't vote No, I voted Yes but with UN approval, no-one can deny that Saddam and his maniac son need to die. We are on a platform and if we react with the spams without the right backing what sort of message does that give to other maniacs with a grudge wordwide. What on earth is the point in having a UN, if we go it alone with uncle Sam and ignore them.

GWB claimed to want to rid the world of terrorism, the goes off on a tangient and guns for Saddam, still haven't got to grips with this yet........
 

CGS

War Hero
Moderator
Oggy, re read my post.  You seem confused by my stance.

Scribbler,  WELL SAID!
 

Oggy69

Old-Salt
CGS;

Humblest apologies, I saw your name in bold at the top and 2 bottles of Wolf Blass got the better of me.

The point I was trying to make is that your average squaddie these days has the ability to think for himself and should be able to express an opinion.  We all go through our careers being lied to by people up the chain and we're used to that now, it's part of the job. But the Government, the very people who are sending us on this historical path should get the story straight before they commit.
 
The overwhelming point here, is that there is not enough information being released by the Government, to set the minds of troops, their families and the populace at large at ease.

The mediaops have been a Fcukup from start to finish. Blair stood up, on 9/12 and was the first to rally to the call on the War agaist Terrorism. Closely followed by Sharon, but I think we know the reason why. especially as his tanks rolled into Gaza almost immediately afterwards.

My first uncharitable thought, when I saw the towers hit, was "Now you once a year Irishmen, who contribute to the cause, know what terrorism really feels like" I don't think I was alone.

Blair very correctly in my opinion, committed us to T W A T , because in the 21st Century, that is the very real threat. However, I seem to remember at the time, he said an attack on Iraq wasn't on the cards, because there was no substantive link. Not withstanding the fact, that Saddam likes to kill fundamentalists, not back them.

Blair committed us, and all of a sudden, Bush43 pulled Iraq out of the hat. What was Blair to do? About face? He couldn't. We were engaged, and 43 knew that. It was a cynical move on behalf of that administration, to recruit support for the real plan, the removal of Saddam, and the establishment of a  buffer state, between the Islamic fundamentalists ... Iran, The morally bankrupt Kingdom of Saud et al, and Israel.

I can see several advantages for America, in gaining Iraq as a US satellite.

1. Cheap Oil, and a guaranteed supply into the 22nd Century.
2. A prize of a strategic base, for any other operations in the Gulf
3. A buffer state, between Israel and her neighbours.
4. No need to continue pumping Billions at Israel, in the interests of defence (see 3)

However, the execution of Op. Regime Change 2003 has gone badly wrong. US and UK intelligence, is not bang up to date , as regards any WMD holdings Saddam has, the UN inspectors can't find anything.

That is further evidenced, by the desperation with which Ari Fleischer seized on the reports of 11 empty warheads. The Worlds press were reporting 11 EMPTY ChemWeps, other reports were stating, that these were overlooked, condition of the cases etc. However, Fleischer, in the press briefing, reported then as 11 CHEMICAL weapons...

Blairs much vaunted Weps report, which we were all told "Wait and see, this will prove it" turned out to be nothing more than 2nd hand intel, and smoke and mirrors.

Subsonic , as regards one of your points

An Iraqi "Northern Alliance" probablly knows they only need to topple a Ba'ath minority for the deck of cards to collapse.

Where is this INA going to come from? The last time they rose, and fought bloody valiantly, they were left to die, and they suffered for it. Furthermore, the Iraqi opposition is fractured and in disarray, none of them can agree, they distrust the US strongly, especially, as America hasn't even spoken to them about forming a future government. The feeling amongst them, is very strong, that America will just install another oil executive that used to work for Bush41, as they've done in Afghanistan, and there are certain issues, amongst the indigenous population that will NOT be satisfied by that.

The Kurds, and the PKK etc, want certain guarantees about autonomy, in return for helping topple the Ba'ath regime, so far, those guarantees have not been forthcoming, and, as they sit on top of some of Iraq's richest oilfields, i don't think they will get those in a hurry. Which is why they were left to die the first time around. You can't have a situation where a bunch of Badmashes is dictating to you, about your oil supplies.

Saddam, like Tito, has ruled Iraq with an iron fist since he came to power. Maybe one of the reasons we have to get in there now, is Saddam is terminally ill? Remember what happened when Tito died? Yugoslavia went to ratsh*t in seconds one. Tito kept the likes of Ratko and Radovan Karadjic under control. That is not support for Saddam, but a scenario.

So far, we have heard NOTHING about the plans for Iraq after occupation. We haven't heard about the cost or the implementation, all we hear is "Remove Saddam" and replace him with what?

The politicains, will really have to be more open, in the information age. They will have to understand, that with better communication facilities for Joe Public, he doesn't have to take what the Bluppet Broadcasting Corporation or CNN throw at him, as gospel.

....and that is at the root of the resistance.Hearts and Minds begins at home
 
PTP
Perhaps I need to set my remarks in context:
  • I started life as a TA soldier humping an A 41 over SPTA
  • For 6 years I had a team of TA specialists assigned to me for training, Exercises and Operations
  • I spent 3 years in a regional Bde HQ advising TA units on Security and sometimes Intelligence matters

some of your points:

Information not being released  During the Kosovo campaign single source unique intelligence was released to the media by a ministerial advisor,to score political points.  Points were scored, but the allied intelligence feed was cut for days placing military and innocent civilian lives at risk.  

The politicians  may have learned their lesson, the Intelligence comunity are now certainly a lot more cautious.

Conscious of you position as a PTP, I can tell you that there are a number of TA units who should not be holding arms and ammunition, never mind sensitive national intelligence.  Source protection is a principle of intelligence, (JWP 2-00 if you're interested).  Need to know is a principle of Security.  As Stick_Knave may tell you, Intelligence Collection can cost lives.

Media Ops  Without knowing waht the media ops strategy is, I think it is difficult to come up with an objective view.  Sine the Clockwork Orange revalations, by a onetime TA officer,  Government have shied away fro the kind of PSYOPS we saw in WW2.  Our adversaries have not, and this community continues to play into their hands.

Blair has commited us I think this has been done to death around here already.  If UK loses its negotiating position Armageddon will break out.  Please recognise that UK, not Blair, has some influence there.  Be thankful that the Labour left and the Unions are  on Blairs shoulder.  OK he's sailing close to the wind at a strategic level.  So no one in this community does over 70mph, or carrys a round up the spout on ops???

Buffer states and moral bancruptcy   You me and everyone else in this country.  Who do you think drew the maps up out there, who helped create Israel: the Brits.  Pop round to your local Polish club, and don't dare to mention baltic war criminals amongst them, we let them in with open arms.  You may be confident on the moral high ground, but there are close to 60m other people around here and history does not put us, as a Nation in a brilliant light.

Second hand US intelligence  Well you are either hypothesising or a memebr of ** Comms Coy (V).  Clearly you make free use on the net as a research tool, this is unevaluated information.  Try speaking to someone in the community, subjectivity does no one any good.

Iraqi Resistance clearly like me, your peer group have been working on Op Warden for the past 11 years?

Saddam like Tito Yes of course we wrung our hands whist the Krajnas and UNPA's fell.  I suppose the whole G5 and CIMIC world that has sprung up since then is just a job creation scheme?  I'm on the periphery of that world, but I do know that some of the best technocrats in the world are stood by to get these folks up and running.  The aim is surely that We create the conditions for reigeme change.   Tell me next  that it was the SPAMs who bumped Tito off to get the SDA in?

So far, we have heard NOTHING about the plans for Iraq after occupation  I'm afraid that OPSEC is still a subject dear to my heart, I've lost too many mates on Ops to want to wave the FOIA flag.  In any case this is not the place to do it.  Like FS said  "keep mum, she's not so dumb".

There are a lot of people out there who have a job to do and a lot of this dialogue does not help any of them, or the families they will leave behind.  There is supposed to be a one army concept here, one of us is loosing sight of it.

If this kicks off I would hate to see some of these comments put in front of the families of those who do not come back

There is not more I feel I can add to this debate, if it pains you mail me.  I suggest you try the Oxford union or Grauniad letters page next.  From the weight of you contributions here, clearly you have potential as a journalist, perhaps in politics?

If you can't recognise that Army life is that of the Mushroom, then, it sounds like you need to examine your comittment.  If you are an officer or warrant officer, you also need to read your warrant again!
 
Hey Subsonic, acknowledging all your points about Opsec and all.................I'm afraid there hasn't been a good enough case for this war. The Military might have to endure their appointment as Duty Mushrooms, but I sure as hell don't.

When the missile dust has settled and the funerals of the boys and girls of various cookhouses, med centres, infantry sections, engineer units, sig rebro sites and tank crews are ongoing, and all we see is Captain America running oil wells with yashmag wearing minions, I will need to see with my own eyes that all of this hasn't been for just the extension of USA Corporate Joe's benefit.

I will buy the siting of local American interests to reduce the power of Islamic fundamentalists, the rebalancing of power in the region and a reduction in Israeli influence of USA/global affairs - but I won't buy anything else.
 
If you cannot find Osama, bomb Iraq.
If the markets are a drama, bomb Iraq.
If the terrorists are frisky,
Pakistan is looking shifty,
North Korea is too risky,
Bomb Iraq.

If we have no allies with us, bomb Iraq.
If we think someone has dissed us, bomb Iraq.
So to hell with the inspections,
Let's look tough for the elections,
Close your mind and take directions,
Bomb Iraq.

It's "preemptive nonaggression," bomb Iraq.
Let's prevent this mass destruction, bomb Iraq.
They've got weapons we can't see,
And that's good enough for me
'Cos it's all the proof I need
Bomb Iraq.

If you never were elected, bomb Iraq.
If your mood is quite dejected, bomb Iraq.
If you think Saddam's gone mad,
With the weapons that he had,
(And he tried to kill your dad),
Bomb Iraq.

If your corporate fraud is growin,' bomb Iraq.
If your ties to it are showin,' bomb Iraq.
If your politics are sleazy,
And hiding that ain't easy,
And your manhood's getting queasy,
Bomb Iraq.

Fall in line and follow orders, bomb Iraq.
For our might knows not our borders, bomb Iraq.
Disagree? We'll call it treason,
Let's make war not love this season,
Even if we have no reason,
Bomb Iraq.
 
Subsonic,

Many thanks for your critique on my reply.

Yes, I am a PTP, and as per the illustrious Major Hogan, "My coat buttons up over a variety of duties" not all of them PTP based.

To reply on a couple of points

"Second hand US intelligence  Well you are either hypothesising or a memebr of ** Comms Coy (V).  Clearly you make free use on the net as a research tool, this is unevaluated information.  Try speaking to someone in the community, subjectivity does no one any good. "

It's second hand in a lot of cases. Some agencies have been paying informants for years, to supply intel, that is plain NO GOOD. Saddam may well, and has probably removed weapons from sites, where they may have previously been hidden, however, I feel, and believe, that a lot of this intel is not hard, but influenced by the next payment, and that is now coming home to roost

"Iraqi Resistance- clearly like me, your peer group have been working on Op Warden for the past 11 years? "

No, my Peer group has been working with Iraqi resistance and potential government members and high interest individuals for the last 5 months .

So far, we have heard NOTHING about the plans for Iraq after occupation  I'm afraid that OPSEC is still a subject dear to my heart, I've lost too many mates on Ops to want to wave the FOIA flag.  In any case this is not the place to do it.  Like FS said  "keep mum, she's not so dumb".

I'm sorry, but how does the plan for how Iraq is governed after an occupation, compromise OPSEC?

The indigenous population, Ba'ath, shi'a, sunni, Christian, Turkoman, Assyrian, Kurdish etc, want to know. If they like what they hear, it might make our job easier? I fully understand not compromising OPSEC as regards Operational plans and deployments, but I can't understand, not selling the Iraqi peoples, a promise of a better life. Or is insurrection from within, not considered an option, but telling them we intend to shoot 800 missiles at them in a 2 day period the best way of winning hearts and minds?


"There are a lot of people out there who have a job to do and a lot of this dialogue does not help any of them, or the families they will leave behind.  There is supposed to be a one army concept here, one of us is loosing sight of it."

If this kicks off I would hate to see some of these comments put in front of the families of those who do not come back "

Subsonic, I'd like you to go back and find a post of mine, that criticises British Armed Forces, and our involvement in this operation.  If I have made such a post, I will remove it, and apologise uneqivocally. The main thrust of my posts, have always been WHY? These questions have also been asked by Armed Forces members ex and current, with nose-bleed pay scales.

"There is not more I feel I can add to this debate, if it pains you mail me.  I suggest you try the Oxford union or Grauniad letters page next.  From the weight of you contributions here, clearly you have potential as a journalist, perhaps in politics? "

Arrse exists for just this sort of thing, if it didn't then we'd all be signed up to ClubArmy.
If you believe,that troops aren't discussing these issues now, then you're mistaken.

We'd all like to be deployed,I hope, with the backing and support of the majority of the British people. I know I would. The Government, needs to get it's ducks in a row now, and get that element sorted. The Iraqi foreign ministry, is quoting dissent and EU divisions straight back at us.Perversly, because of this Governments handling of MediaOps and information, we are giving aid and comfort to an enemy.  If they can't provide the information , then at least we know when we hit the ground kebabside, we will do as we always do, and that is to LOOK OUT FOR OUR OPPOS, and to get the job done regardless of any personal feelings, something which the Government and it's spinmeisters should be making the most of. We are coming to kick you out Saddam.

If anyone feels that he has such reservations, he can't get involved, then he shouldn't be in the Armed Forces, sh1t does happen, at the end of the day, we grumble and go.

I will have young men, under my responsibility.I will do my damndest, to make sure they all come back alive from this, and quips re. political journalism or reading toilet paper ,are cheap,patronising in the extreme, and baseless.

Whatever the real reason is that Blair and Bush are sending us into the Gulf, eyes wide shut are, My only concern will be my bods, ammo, water, rations,objectives tasked, and getting myself, and those within my responsibility out in one piece.

Incidentally, I voted yes, with a further UN resolution, as I believe the majority in the UK and the US are doing presently.

There is no question in my mind, of a NO vote, Saddam needs removing, but I can think of other leaders, who are possibly in a more pressing position for a coup de grace.

By the above, I don't mean Bluppet of Shrub 43, I do however mean Mugabe and the Kingdom of Hypocrisy.
 

verdi

Old-Salt
PTP. I think I may employ you to be my spokesman. You always seem to know what i want to say, but do so in a far more eloquent and reasoned manner than I ever could! Well said again. ;D
 
Coming from your end of the army Verdi, that is a comment I take pride in receiving....

See you in an OP near me sometime soon chap, bring the dodgy barley flavoured mouthwash - lol :)
 

Ord_Sgt

RIP
RIP
So what is the deal?

It was mentioned earlier that if another SC resolution explicitly authorising force is not passed can British service men be called to account by the international criminal court for illegally invading another country? U.S. troops are not affected, they opted out remember but we did not!

The Belgians tried to get Ariel Sharon for his alleged involvement in a massacre in Lebanon in 1982. Since then the ICC has been formed and all British service men are bound by it.

It only takes one country opposed to this to make a claim and somebody will be hauled up to explain why they followed allegedly illegally orders.

This is a serious question which has not been answered yet. I, for one would be a bit concerned about this.
 

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