Should we go to war?
- Thread starter Bad CO
- Start date
wHoSaIdThAt?
Old-Salt
I wonder what the breakdown of voters is?
In - Out - TA - Reg etc! ???
In - Out - TA - Reg etc! ???
The problem is, if/when we do go in, what will we actually be fighting?
Anyone with a gun, in uniform, or anyone that has had sanctions imposed on them for 12 years, has got nothing to lose, and just wants to defend his home?
I'd like to see what the rules of engagement are on this one because if we're not careful, we'll have generations of Iraqi suicide bombers wanting to meet Allah in a street near you.
If Maddass has got WMD and the US/UK govt know their location, why don't they tell the inspectors where they are? I suspect the answer is that when all the troops are in place and ready to roll, the arms inspectors will find something "right at the last minute" so we could go in.
I just feel that Bush and his lapdog are working to a different timetable and I'm fed up with them insulting everyone's intelligence.
You've got to ask yourself how did we get from some nutters flying jets into the WTC to something that should have been sorted out 12 years ago and then ask yourself what would have happened if we had left SH alone?
Nothing
Anyone with a gun, in uniform, or anyone that has had sanctions imposed on them for 12 years, has got nothing to lose, and just wants to defend his home?
I'd like to see what the rules of engagement are on this one because if we're not careful, we'll have generations of Iraqi suicide bombers wanting to meet Allah in a street near you.
If Maddass has got WMD and the US/UK govt know their location, why don't they tell the inspectors where they are? I suspect the answer is that when all the troops are in place and ready to roll, the arms inspectors will find something "right at the last minute" so we could go in.
I just feel that Bush and his lapdog are working to a different timetable and I'm fed up with them insulting everyone's intelligence.
You've got to ask yourself how did we get from some nutters flying jets into the WTC to something that should have been sorted out 12 years ago and then ask yourself what would have happened if we had left SH alone?
Nothing
Jip Travolta
LE
At the end of the day, it will be an illegal invasion of sovereign territory whether approved by the UN or not. Even if it is proven he has WMD - so what? What gives anyone the right to invade/kill/destroy/capture?
If we do it alone, will the UN recognise the illegality and send a UN force to challenge US/UK PLC's actions? Technically, they would be obliged to do so - and where would that leave us?
It is Saddam's INTENT to use these weapons (if they in fact exist) that must be established first......
...then, and only then, will I change my sig!
If we do it alone, will the UN recognise the illegality and send a UN force to challenge US/UK PLC's actions? Technically, they would be obliged to do so - and where would that leave us?
It is Saddam's INTENT to use these weapons (if they in fact exist) that must be established first......
...then, and only then, will I change my sig!
Line_Grunt
War Hero
subbsonic
LE
CGS
Perhaps you should pop back to "Ethical concerns"
Some time since I was able to delve into our "Electronic Battle Box" But I' sure there is something in there about "Coercion??" You do need to be able to show a credible capability for Coercion to be efective???
There was a lot of hype about what was going to happen after we went into Afghanistan, I must have popped to Tescos whilst Aramgeddon struck.
Could it be that our convetional force could be used as a lever for an Irregular Iraqi force in the same way that the Northern Alliance did the business in Afghanistan??
On the home front
Please all remember that the Info Ops war started weeks ago. This :
http://www.arrse.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb1/YaBB.pl?
is probably somebodys NAI or DP, if not, its certainly an AII (Area Of Intelligence Interest
There is an amount of live ammunition lying about on these threads that the likes of the Grauniad and the New Statesman could well use to shoot back at us. Not only will this salve their bleeding hearts, it can be used to undermine public support for us to do our job
Line Grunt's post above could be the tip of the Iceberg.
Please: don't let the media do to us here, what they did to the spams in Somalia and Vietnam
Eagle: PS
Two barrels of RICIN in spain. So just how many completely innocent civvies are going to have to die before you decide to change your sig?????
(Perhaps U need to speak to someone
in media ops M 8 ??)
Perhaps you should pop back to "Ethical concerns"
Some time since I was able to delve into our "Electronic Battle Box" But I' sure there is something in there about "Coercion??" You do need to be able to show a credible capability for Coercion to be efective???
There was a lot of hype about what was going to happen after we went into Afghanistan, I must have popped to Tescos whilst Aramgeddon struck.
Could it be that our convetional force could be used as a lever for an Irregular Iraqi force in the same way that the Northern Alliance did the business in Afghanistan??
On the home front
Please all remember that the Info Ops war started weeks ago. This :
http://www.arrse.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb1/YaBB.pl?
is probably somebodys NAI or DP, if not, its certainly an AII (Area Of Intelligence Interest
There is an amount of live ammunition lying about on these threads that the likes of the Grauniad and the New Statesman could well use to shoot back at us. Not only will this salve their bleeding hearts, it can be used to undermine public support for us to do our job
Line Grunt's post above could be the tip of the Iceberg.
Please: don't let the media do to us here, what they did to the spams in Somalia and Vietnam
Eagle: PS
Two barrels of RICIN in spain. So just how many completely innocent civvies are going to have to die before you decide to change your sig?????
(Perhaps U need to speak to someone
in media ops M 8 ??)
Where the blimmin hell have you been?
Oh, and welcome back by the way
SS,
Listened. Heard. Do you really think that the think-tanks, radical party media and the geneally misdirected liberal sets not think this already?
Do you not think that by provoking this debate, the major sectors of the media in this country are not proving the positive rather than the negative? What better opportunity do you think we posess in order to strengthen our position than to have some thinly veilled criticism of morale in order that we can trounce it in every way by showin stories of the opposite?
Now don't get me wrong, I'm VERY assured of the right path here and that If the boots fit you should wear them. Look at the Czechs:
http://www.lidovenoviny.cz/
For those of you who don't do the language, the press has apparently canvassed the opinion of the public, who are furious that their govt has not been strong and has let their boys home. That, I would suggest is the kind of media attention we require. Since then there have been hundreds of soldiers volunteering to get it on and go out to the Gulf because of the media reaction.
My comment was mereely made in relation to this kind of potential threat:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1-553638,00.html
Listened. Heard. Do you really think that the think-tanks, radical party media and the geneally misdirected liberal sets not think this already?
Do you not think that by provoking this debate, the major sectors of the media in this country are not proving the positive rather than the negative? What better opportunity do you think we posess in order to strengthen our position than to have some thinly veilled criticism of morale in order that we can trounce it in every way by showin stories of the opposite?
Now don't get me wrong, I'm VERY assured of the right path here and that If the boots fit you should wear them. Look at the Czechs:
http://www.lidovenoviny.cz/
For those of you who don't do the language, the press has apparently canvassed the opinion of the public, who are furious that their govt has not been strong and has let their boys home. That, I would suggest is the kind of media attention we require. Since then there have been hundreds of soldiers volunteering to get it on and go out to the Gulf because of the media reaction.
My comment was mereely made in relation to this kind of potential threat:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1-553638,00.html
Matelot
Clanker
Eagle, you said:
Not strictly true. The UN charter overrules all other treaties, laws and charters, and the charter allows use of force against another country to take place in two circumstances: when covered by Article 41 (self-defence - not applicable in this case) or "specifically authorised" by Article 42 (when authorised by the UN Security Council resolution).
An Article 42 action is the case in point - the USA claims that SCR 1441 authorises force - and most other countries claim it doesn't. All previous Article 42 (also called Chapter VII) SCRs, from SCR 80 about the Korean War to SCR 687 about Kuwait, used unambiguous language such as "by all necessary means", or "all measures necessary".
So, despite all Bush's posturing, and whatever your opinions on the causes and effects of the whole thing, there are only 2 alternatives:
1. If the US/UK go in without a further unambiguous SCR, we'd be breaking international law.
2. If the UN passes an unambiguous Article 42 SCR, then international law, and public support, would be on our side.
On current form, I'm guessing we're all going to be outlaws. And as B'Liar didn't claim an Armed Forces derogation from the International Criminal Court (unlike the USA), then we're (uniquely amongst those walking across the Iraqi desert) legally liable outlaws to boot.
Vote Labour... and become a War Criminal.
Not strictly true. The UN charter overrules all other treaties, laws and charters, and the charter allows use of force against another country to take place in two circumstances: when covered by Article 41 (self-defence - not applicable in this case) or "specifically authorised" by Article 42 (when authorised by the UN Security Council resolution).
An Article 42 action is the case in point - the USA claims that SCR 1441 authorises force - and most other countries claim it doesn't. All previous Article 42 (also called Chapter VII) SCRs, from SCR 80 about the Korean War to SCR 687 about Kuwait, used unambiguous language such as "by all necessary means", or "all measures necessary".
So, despite all Bush's posturing, and whatever your opinions on the causes and effects of the whole thing, there are only 2 alternatives:
1. If the US/UK go in without a further unambiguous SCR, we'd be breaking international law.
2. If the UN passes an unambiguous Article 42 SCR, then international law, and public support, would be on our side.
On current form, I'm guessing we're all going to be outlaws. And as B'Liar didn't claim an Armed Forces derogation from the International Criminal Court (unlike the USA), then we're (uniquely amongst those walking across the Iraqi desert) legally liable outlaws to boot.
Vote Labour... and become a War Criminal.
Where the blimmin hell have you been?
Oh, and welcome back by the way
Thanks mate. Nice to be back.
There is too much lizard-weaseldom creeping in here. We are going, our blokes need the support so stop whingeing.
er, well said THAT man. uh, carry on as well.
we know it's happening. There's no point in whining at things as large as this (ooer)Let's put the game heads on and get on with it. Even if it means finding, somehow, our own moral reason for doing it. you never know they may even be better than the reasons we've been given already. We are the people that fight for those who cannot fight for themselves. Some over there can't. So we will. I know there is a list of countries just as bad, or worse, but sadly they are untouchable at the moment. For whatever reason. So let's go there and do it, watch each others backs and come back in one piece. And don't forget a very valuable lesson. Something we all need to learn.......
The grid of the desert rose at night
Scribbler
Clanker
Have you took the shilling?
Did you take the oath?
Are you spending your 12% X factor?
Do you have your CO's permission to publicly criticise your Prime Minister?
Think you shouldn't have to fight a war you don't believe in?
It's no good creaming the benefits and then deciding you have a conscience when you are asked to earn your wages.
Let's get on with it and leave the clergy to debate the moral issues. One thing is for certain, there'll be a prayer somewhere that explains we are in the right.
Did you take the oath?
Are you spending your 12% X factor?
Do you have your CO's permission to publicly criticise your Prime Minister?
Think you shouldn't have to fight a war you don't believe in?
It's no good creaming the benefits and then deciding you have a conscience when you are asked to earn your wages.
Let's get on with it and leave the clergy to debate the moral issues. One thing is for certain, there'll be a prayer somewhere that explains we are in the right.
dogmonkey
LE
This is much more like it.....
Yet another scandalous issue at the mo is that anyone with less than six months left to push, doesn't go unless they sign on for an extra period of time. Another chance for ne'er do-well loafers to avoid what they've been paid to do for the last however many years.
Still, they'll have to look at themselves in the mirror for the rest of their days knowing that when they got the call they folded.
Live with that lizards!!!!
Yet another scandalous issue at the mo is that anyone with less than six months left to push, doesn't go unless they sign on for an extra period of time. Another chance for ne'er do-well loafers to avoid what they've been paid to do for the last however many years.
Still, they'll have to look at themselves in the mirror for the rest of their days knowing that when they got the call they folded.
Live with that lizards!!!!
Aunty Stella
LE
Seconded Scribbler
This is a difficult one
After volunteering for Granby 1, and a couple of other insignificant tours I question myself as to wether or not I would be up for this one,
I think my honest opinion would be no, not out of cowardice, not out of idleness I think that there are too many divisions of thought out there.
On Granby 1 there was no question that Saddam should be removed, in the Falklands it was open and closed, kick em out, In kosova, Bosnia etc there was full justification for the interference of the Armed Forces.
I simply do not think this should be happening without further say so from the UN
I don't want to see good mates and ex colleagues die for the sake of Bushes vendetta. The polls speak for themselves, too many not sures etc.
I wonder how many of the Yes votes are from 19, 20 yr old Nigs who have just joined up and never seen a stiff and how many 'Yes lets do em' came from older more experienced soldiers.
Granted the soldiers serve the Queen and the government of the day, How many of us would vote this government back in office if there was an election tomorrow.
Just a thought.
To stop ORG and some of the others brandishing me a yellow bellied white feather waver, Iam about to sacrifice an Iraqi toddler with a pitchfork on the M6 flyover at Preston
I don't want to be considered a pacifist, I truly believe Saddam should be removed, just not this way. Im all for zimbabwe and half a dozen other just causes for Military involvement wordwide. If the brown envelope arrived tomorrow for any of them I'd be right there. Just not this trip to the desert in these circumstances.
Then again opinions are like ass-holes, everybody has one, thats mine
After volunteering for Granby 1, and a couple of other insignificant tours I question myself as to wether or not I would be up for this one,
I think my honest opinion would be no, not out of cowardice, not out of idleness I think that there are too many divisions of thought out there.
On Granby 1 there was no question that Saddam should be removed, in the Falklands it was open and closed, kick em out, In kosova, Bosnia etc there was full justification for the interference of the Armed Forces.
I simply do not think this should be happening without further say so from the UN
I don't want to see good mates and ex colleagues die for the sake of Bushes vendetta. The polls speak for themselves, too many not sures etc.
I wonder how many of the Yes votes are from 19, 20 yr old Nigs who have just joined up and never seen a stiff and how many 'Yes lets do em' came from older more experienced soldiers.
Granted the soldiers serve the Queen and the government of the day, How many of us would vote this government back in office if there was an election tomorrow.
Just a thought.
To stop ORG and some of the others brandishing me a yellow bellied white feather waver, Iam about to sacrifice an Iraqi toddler with a pitchfork on the M6 flyover at Preston
I don't want to be considered a pacifist, I truly believe Saddam should be removed, just not this way. Im all for zimbabwe and half a dozen other just causes for Military involvement wordwide. If the brown envelope arrived tomorrow for any of them I'd be right there. Just not this trip to the desert in these circumstances.
Then again opinions are like ass-holes, everybody has one, thats mine
I apologise to you all if my post seemed a little bit anti-war, far from it, I'm up for a ruck with Maddass any time.
I was trying to put the point across that the people that are selling this action to the rest of the world aren't doing a very good job. If it all goes t1ts up and the Arab league start looking for someone to batter, then it'll be us and the Americans who bear the brunt of any repercussions in the future.
CGS:
Armageddon didn't strike when we went into Afganistan because the place needed sorting after 9/11 and we had a clear goal which was to capture OBL and his Taliban cronies. Who are you going to put cross hairs on in Iraq, anyone wearing a lab coat that posses a chemistry set?
And as for saying that this is an area for the media to use info to throw back at us, well if you feel that strongly about it, why don't you start your own little dictatorship and close the site down until this has all blown over.
It's a bl00dy bulletin board for use by soldiers, what do you expect!? This isn't 1914 where the soldiers were stood on parade so an Officer could call out daily orders because none of them could read. Most of us can read, have been educated, can just about string sentences together and can formulate opinions for ourselves. Talk about freedom of speach police.
2 barrels of Ricin in Spain? Yep, it's got Saddam written all over it. Apparantly the Americans have a 5000 page dossier providing proof that Maddass personally mixed it himself in his kitchen. By our country's very action we're pi55ing off an awful lot of people, do you think we'll just be allowed to just wander into Iraq and take his country? Last time that happened the world was up in arms, you remember it was about 1990
Scribbler:
"Preparing for war, and praying for peace"
Please don't get me going on the religion thing, "My God's better than your God", that's one of the fundamental reasons this all started.
I was trying to put the point across that the people that are selling this action to the rest of the world aren't doing a very good job. If it all goes t1ts up and the Arab league start looking for someone to batter, then it'll be us and the Americans who bear the brunt of any repercussions in the future.
CGS:
Armageddon didn't strike when we went into Afganistan because the place needed sorting after 9/11 and we had a clear goal which was to capture OBL and his Taliban cronies. Who are you going to put cross hairs on in Iraq, anyone wearing a lab coat that posses a chemistry set?
And as for saying that this is an area for the media to use info to throw back at us, well if you feel that strongly about it, why don't you start your own little dictatorship and close the site down until this has all blown over.
It's a bl00dy bulletin board for use by soldiers, what do you expect!? This isn't 1914 where the soldiers were stood on parade so an Officer could call out daily orders because none of them could read. Most of us can read, have been educated, can just about string sentences together and can formulate opinions for ourselves. Talk about freedom of speach police.
2 barrels of Ricin in Spain? Yep, it's got Saddam written all over it. Apparantly the Americans have a 5000 page dossier providing proof that Maddass personally mixed it himself in his kitchen. By our country's very action we're pi55ing off an awful lot of people, do you think we'll just be allowed to just wander into Iraq and take his country? Last time that happened the world was up in arms, you remember it was about 1990
Scribbler:
"Preparing for war, and praying for peace"
Please don't get me going on the religion thing, "My God's better than your God", that's one of the fundamental reasons this all started.
Scribbler
Clanker
Mighty Doh Nut,
Very level headed approach from you, and delighted to see you still keep your sense of humour. My vote went with yours in regards to gaining further UN support, but what the hell, when it comes down to it, those of us in the green do as we are told.
I just don't think that serving soldiers (and I emphasise serving) should whine on about politics when a crisis emerges. They should have considered the possibilities long before and either not joined or left when they had the chance. I respect your opinion as I do those of others posted on this subject here and elsewhere.
We can all wrestle with our consciences privately, but at the end of the day we have to have faith that our Government will do the right thing. I unreservedly believe that despite any personal shortcomings in leadership, Britain is a democracy and when the decision does come, it will be the right one. Furthermore I know that regardless of whether I agree with that decision or not I have a duty to see it through.
I'm saying nothing else on this subject, I already feel that as a professional, bound by oath, and with a duty to those I serve that we need to be resolute in supporting any decision by HMG. Shitty death, how friggin easy can it be for anyone to have to make that sort of decision. It's not one I would ever want to have to make, no matter if I was paid a fireman's wage claim!!
Very level headed approach from you, and delighted to see you still keep your sense of humour. My vote went with yours in regards to gaining further UN support, but what the hell, when it comes down to it, those of us in the green do as we are told.
I just don't think that serving soldiers (and I emphasise serving) should whine on about politics when a crisis emerges. They should have considered the possibilities long before and either not joined or left when they had the chance. I respect your opinion as I do those of others posted on this subject here and elsewhere.
We can all wrestle with our consciences privately, but at the end of the day we have to have faith that our Government will do the right thing. I unreservedly believe that despite any personal shortcomings in leadership, Britain is a democracy and when the decision does come, it will be the right one. Furthermore I know that regardless of whether I agree with that decision or not I have a duty to see it through.
I'm saying nothing else on this subject, I already feel that as a professional, bound by oath, and with a duty to those I serve that we need to be resolute in supporting any decision by HMG. Shitty death, how friggin easy can it be for anyone to have to make that sort of decision. It's not one I would ever want to have to make, no matter if I was paid a fireman's wage claim!!
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