Should we allow scenes of War Crimes etc?

Do we want figures that represent atrocities/war crimes shown on here?

  • Yes

    Votes: 13 37.1%
  • No

    Votes: 21 60.0%
  • Nothing after 1900, older stuff is acceptable

    Votes: 1 2.9%

  • Total voters
    35
  • Poll closed .
I remember the Civil War cards - they were very popular when I was at school. Must have been about 1969-1970 IIRC.

I was in UK for the first time from 64 to 66 and they were out then.
 
Back in the 70s Military Modelling ran a series by Andrew Mollo on uniforms of the SS. The front cover of the issue it was launched in was a photo of a steel helmeted SS man's head, the page was tinted blue IIRC. There was a massive back lash at the time and many subscriptions cancelled in protest at glorifying the SS.

If it did become a 'thing' how long before the rivet counters got involved and lost sight of what's being depicted?

To a certain degree I would question what the point of them would be, outside of say an exhibition. As has been said where would it stop? A couple of squaddies caught by a mob in Ireland?

I'd be against it myself and would wonder at someone who had a collection of pieces of such a nature.

+1
 

Legs

ADC
Book Reviewer
I'm not a modeller. I used to do a few but was never happy with my results. However I avidly watch the beautiful depictions of a (often long ago) reality by some of the fine artists on these pages. So I hope my opinion is valid.

So, the real question to me is: Are you making models for someone to say "Oh, how lovely!", or are you making models to depict an often long ago reality ('long ago' being subjective...)?

If the answer is that you are depicting a reality, then the fact that war crimes have and always will happen must be considered. We can all admire a piece as a realistic depiction, a 3D snapshot of a moment in time when something notable occurred. Auschwitz happened. Belsen happened. Hyde Park happened. They are just as relevant as any other 3D snapshot. These 3D snapshots give us pause to think, to remember and to learn. These moments must not be forgotten.

In short, I think these depictions of events should be allowed, even if they are a separate thread.
 
The danger is there's certain people who would "get off" on it. A bit like the rubber neckers at catastrophic car crashes who deliberately slow down to see some gore on the road or people into snuff internet films. There's a place for that sort of thing in fantasy games like Warhammer where you've got slaneesh demons with 12 tits and a shield made from human skin etc, but to depict war crimes would be disrespectful to the victims because it actually happened. Personally, I think it would be pretty bad taste.
 
The danger is there's certain people who would "get off" on it. A bit like the rubber neckers at catastrophic car crashes who deliberately slow down to see some gore on the road or people into snuff internet films. There's a place for that sort of thing in fantasy games like Warhammer where you've got slaneesh demons with 12 tits and a shield made from human skin etc, but to depict war crimes would be disrespectful to the victims because it actually happened. Personally, I think it would be pretty bad taste.

Perhaps seeing some of these models would bring awarerness to some of these idiots.
Personally, I find what they are doing more disrespectful to the victims.

 

Helm

MIA
Moderator
Book Reviewer
Related in part to this I came across this today, showing it doesn't need to be graphic to display an emotional scene
perche01__sized_l.jpg


 

Smeggers

ADC
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Book Reviewer
I have read this thread and a great subject it is. I voted Yes.

Now, why did I do that?

Making a model showing atrocities is not, imho, glorifying the actions, but reminding us of what depraved humanity is capable of - and - how 'ordinary' people can find themselves in the role of executioner. To put a self-imposed, not official, ban on this is, again imo, airbrushing the issue out.

Modellers are artists bringing events to life and in 3D events. Do we now ban photographs taken of einsatzgruppen at work or the liberation of concentration camps or photos of Japanese PoWs when they are liberated? Do we can commemorative statues and other art depicting the Final Solution?

In my opinion, No! This is a highly emotive subject but not one that should be hidden away because we feel uncomfortable with the subject matter.
A well thought out answer A-Y. We'll agree to disagree on the subject but you do put forward a powerful case. I just have the feeling that there are some things better left in the past. Not buried, but not open to misinterpretation or misuse.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
There's a certain ghoulishness to this.

If it's something for a museum, and proportionate and designed to educate (as someone has said above), then okay.

I don't agree with modellers from the safety of modern suburbia, congratulating each other on how 'realistic' they've managed to make depictions of sordid acts.

Whether that be SS panzers retreating through bloated horses' corpses in Normandy, or mass graves in a concentration camp, the principle is the same to me.

The hobby has come on leaps and bounds over the decades, with photo-real now possible. I don't understand why people set out to put so much effort into something so very negative.
 
The poll question is, do we want the models shown on here ?
As I have already said, there is a time and a place to show war crimes and attrocities and I am not against them per se. However I don't think this is the place as it will IMHO detract from what is an excellent forum showing off some amazing moddeling skills and generating some interesting and informative posts.
 
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Smeggers

ADC
Moderator
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I have read this thread and a great subject it is. I voted Yes.

Now, why did I do that?

Making a model showing atrocities is not, imho, glorifying the actions, but reminding us of what depraved humanity is capable of - and - how 'ordinary' people can find themselves in the role of executioner. To put a self-imposed, not official, ban on this is, again imo, airbrushing the issue out.

Modellers are artists bringing events to life and in 3D events. Do we now ban photographs taken of einsatzgruppen at work or the liberation of concentration camps or photos of Japanese PoWs when they are liberated? Do we can commemorative statues and other art depicting the Final Solution?

In my opinion, No! This is a highly emotive subject but not one that should be hidden away because we feel uncomfortable with the subject matter.
A well thought out answer A-Y. We'll agree to disagree on the subject but you do put forward a powerful case. I just have the feeling that there are some things better left in the past. Not buried, but not open to misinterpretation or misuse.
 

Themanwho

LE
Book Reviewer
One man's horrific diaorama is another man's art.


View attachment 568076
Napoleon’s Retreat from Moscow, by Adolph Northern


View attachment 568080
John Singer Sargent's famous picture.

Where do you draw the line? I would put gassing soldiers in the war crimes category.
Whilst I am not in favour of them on ARRSE's modelling pages, there is IMHO a place for such models in the apprpriate places.
The beauty of ARRSE model forums is not only seeing some excellent models taking shape, but also the subjects that are discussed about the kit, personalities and the depth of knowlege about all things military.
There is a time and a place to discuss war crimes and attrocities. Personally I don't think the model forum is the place.
Sargent's "Gaased" is hanging above my desk as I type this, along with Butler's "Quatre Bras"; both are meaningful depictions of war, both show horrific images.

Whilst I have no intention of building a scale model of an Auschwitz gas chamber or Russian soldiers killing SS prisoners, I can understand why a modeller would seek to do so, not as a glorification or pornographic celebration, but to give a realistic depiction. and I would be happy to have those models' images on a separate thread, in this forum. I'm not suggesting we set up a "Rape of Nanking" thread btw!

I've already made two German corpses for my (slightly delayed) diorama shown on this forum, and whilst I know some believe it's disrespectful or unseemly to do so, I believe that as death is an essential part of war it's only right to show it, contextually. Showing a bombed out entrenchment without any dead defenders might be okay for some scenes, but for others the lack of casualties might ruin the effect of the model.
 

ches

LE
I think Auld Yins response is spot on & pretty much mirrors my thinking. I'd also add that having some 'art form' (i use that term loosely esp in terms of my own output) I think when it comes to education of the masses in relation to the genocide of WW2 (for example) a 3 dimensional depiction can help with giving an incident more impact. I don't believe we should be looking to deliberately shock or cause outrage but as with the superb rendition of the child in the red coat vignette elsewhere in this thread, the use of something other than 2d photographs or footage that (imo) due to the tech now common in TV & Film loses a huge amount of impact not least due to it being so grainy & B&W, can help in portraying what actually occurred. When a dio or vignette is combined with a photographic backdrop of the incident or some form of written record as an 'exhibit' type of presentation then that is when (imo) the modelling of this subject matter can be acceptable.
 

Helm

MIA
Moderator
Book Reviewer
Well it's very much a no, I will de sticky this tomorrow, as the poll is closed. Thanks everyone who commented and voted.
 

Smeggers

ADC
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Well it's very much a no, I will de sticky this tomorrow, as the poll is closed. Thanks everyone who commented and voted.
Good effort @Helm I think that clears that up. So no execution/rape/bondage shots then!
 
I recall in to 1970s the 1/32 airfix japanese infantry set included a severed Japanese leg, severed foot and severed shin and foot, all in japanese army uniform. One i recall had "sqiggly bits of innard" at the end. I have never heard any comments about this. I presume it was dropped. Promptly. This was at the time protests against box top artwork depicting firing guns, burning or crashing enemy aircraft etc was getting the artwork sanitised.
 
So can I still build my Woman Bee resin figure on here still, she is freaky, but doesn't execute or cause Genocide, she just likes to collect Honey.
box top original kit artwork.jpg
 

Smeggers

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Themanwho

LE
Book Reviewer
So can I still build my Woman Bee resin figure on here still, she is freaky, but doesn't execute or cause Genocide, she just likes to collect Honey.
View attachment 580805
What the actual f**k is that?

Regardless, make sure the correct number of rivets on her corset/ suspender straps are displayed or you'll incur the wrath of some VERY strange modellers.
 
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