Should there be mandatory training to have children?

Should there be a minimum qualification level in care and wellbeing for anyone about to be a parent?

  • Yes

    Votes: 70 88.6%
  • No

    Votes: 9 11.4%

  • Total voters
    79
Well okay then, so how would you solve the poverty issue? Increase income taxation? Introduce a purely consumer driven form of taxation? Tell me. I'm interested. How would The Gimp solve the problem of poverty?
There is no solution to UK poverty as it is defined as a relative value so some people by definition will always be poor. Absolute poverty is actualy best solved by education and the free market. Give people the tools and the vast majority of them will do the job themselves.
 
But hey we do have perks out here. Granted I think you would die, if you had to adapt to life out here.
I've run projects in the states and while probably not your average set up I was ******* shocked at the conditions and pay that the american guys worked under.

I compared american labourers conditions to the work conditions in the middle east where the Arabs import their labour. At least they are upfront about their disdane for their indentured slaves. The americans I met all still thought they would "make it big" sometime and being thrashed around like donkeys was acceptable for **** all money and some health cover. Why the worm hasn't turned in the USA is beyond me
 
There is no solution to UK poverty as it is defined as a relative value so some people by definition will always be poor. Absolute poverty is actualy best solved by education and the free market. Give people the tools and the vast majority of them will do the job themselves.
Basically, what I said to the gimp over the course of a few posts then?
 
I've run projects in the states and while probably not your average set up I was ******* shocked at the conditions and pay that the american guys worked under.

I compared american labourers conditions to the work conditions in the middle east where the Arabs import their labour. At least they are upfront about their disdane for their indentured slaves. The americans I met all still thought they would "make it big" sometime and being thrashed around like donkeys was acceptable for **** all money and some health cover. Why the worm hasn't turned in the USA is beyond me
You don’t embrace the suck.
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
Plus, as one of the daft bastards who got dicked with teaching this shit (now called PSHE) last year, I ******* hated it.
Isn't that something to let the splits wazz standing up ?
 

MrBane

LE
Moderator
Kit Reviewer
Reviews Editor
Well this has gone off in weird and wonderful directions, with the usual smattering of abuse for good measure. :D

Going back to my original post, I just don't think that the majority of people realise that we are seeing generations of abandoned children coming into this world. By abandoned, I don't mean street urchins asking for more, I mean children that on the face of it, are living in a safe environment with family, but in fact are in dangerous situations with neglect being a core part of their life.

Looking back to one hundred years ago, you could understand why that happened.

Looking back to fifty years ago, you could kind of see why that happened.

In 2019 where we spend billions on bizarre projects, waste millions on vanity structures, or let someone win £75,000,000 on the lottery, and where we can communicate around the world instantaneously, we are unable to ensure that every child in this country is raised to a safe, measured standard of nutrition and education, free from physical, sexual or mental abuse in the family home.

In the UK, we have the Social Work Services. An incredibly overworked, inefficient government function which from my own personal experience, is often staffed by utter liberals with their heads in the cloud. A classic example of this is:

June, mother of Chloe who is 6, Sam who is 9 and Peter who is 14, is a junkie with alcohol dependency. After many referrals from Police and the NHS, the SWS finally take the children from June and put them in the care of Margaret, June's 50 year old mum.

Margaret tries as hard as she can, but is almost incapable of managing three children, who all have various needs due to poor upbringing and education, especially Peter who is getting involved in drugs, alcohol and violence.

SWS will almost force grandparents or immediate family to take the children of an abusive or dangerous home because it 'keeps the family together' - it's nothing to do with that. It's less paperwork for them. I've had these grannies in tears in front of me because they never wanted these kids and can't look after them but SWS won't do anything more about it because they've been signed off onto the granny.

SWS rant over.

You walk the streets within these deprived areas and you could easily take the snapshot from the 60's and 70's of slum Britain with the dirty kids looking dishevelled and malnourished and place it side by side a shot from 2019 and the children would look almost the same in terms of how poorly cared for they are.

I've been in hundreds of homes where the house is upside down (and I mean, a total ******* riot) with festering bins, no carpets, hungry and dirty children but nothing gets done about it.

I've arrested and taken parents from the home on a Section 12 Children and Young Persons Act just so something would get done to protect the kids in the house and it never seems to make a ******* difference.

So what, as a country, are we doing about it? In the grand scheme of things, not a ******* thing. Local Authorities are cutting back on almost all their provisions for youth engagement and child welfare. In another thread I mentioned that I as a cop, am the one who's pulling in two youth agencies and organising leases for them in a deprived area just to try and make inroads into the amount of youth disorder and violence that's going on.

Someone else mentioned about the adult for every child scheme in Scotland - it would never have worked because it would've become a box ticking exercise of the highest order.

So if we as a country wanted to do something about this, then the measures would need to be drastic. I thought about solutions the other day, and this was the one that stuck with me, though it gets pretty extreme (this is on the basis of the government putting money in to create a new arm which would be resourced properly):

1. Every child under the age of 16 gets a one to one visit from a qualified person to ascertain their safety and well being first and foremost, and records brought up to date. Plenty of instances of children dying or being killed in the home because they were off the radar.

2. Every school, doctor and dentist submits a report to this department on every child on their roll as do the police for any under 16 they have on their databases.

3. Traffic light system is used to identify those at risk of harm. Amber being those where extra attention is required and red being the ones with immediate action required.

4. A Unit Score which relates to a large number of factors. The higher the score the greater the risk in that category.

Green
No concerns, annual monitoring unless they reach a pre-determined Unit Score and come close to Amber. Then it's pre-emptive guidance and signposting if required.

Amber
Where an amber is identified, a consultation with the parents initially to establish what's going on / what's gone wrong. This would potentially help signpost parents who are struggling to proper support mechanisms, be it financial, mental, etc. Then a meeting is held with the child and an appropriate third party neutral observer - no parental presence. Questions asked about how they're doing, how's school, etc. A general sounding if you like of the child, their communication abilities, their appearance and physical attributes.

Where work is required to improve standards, the parents are given advice and guidance, but it's taken as a mark against them which adds to the Unit Score.

Follow up visits at regular intervals to see how the family is progressing, and any shortcomings, failures to improve, etc, all add to the Unit Score.

Once the Unit Score reaches a pre-determined level, it tips them over into Red.

Red
Immediate evaluation as to whether or not the child needs to be removed to a place of safety.

The parents or guardians with responsibility are sent on a course of learning to improve on the points they've fallen down on in terms of care, hygiene, nutrition, etc. This course must be a pass or else they risk the child being removed to a place of safety.

Monitored care. The family is given a 'holiday' at a Family Centre, where they live in suitable accommodation with kitchen, etc, and they are monitored in terms of how they work together as a family, how they feed the children, speak to them, their own habits as parents, etc.

This is to see if there's any chance of improvement in the behaviour that has led to the child being classed as red and at risk of harm.

Ultimately, if the Unit Score hits a pre-determined point, the child is removed. If a child is rated as red, during intervention, all the parents can do is try to get the score down and drop into Amber and hopefully green.



Obviously a scrappy and rough idea, but answer me this:

What the **** else can we do when there are thousands of people with children who just don't give a flying **** about their welfare and well being?

Some conversation examples I've had in the last week:

"Where's your mum?" (Playing on pavement of a main roadway, 8yrs old)
"She's asleep in bed."
"At this time?" (10am)
"Uhuh... She's had some of her special juice and was tired" (that's methadone in case you're wondering).

"When was the last time you had something to eat?" (I always ask kids this)
"Last night"
"It's 4pm now..."
"I know. I'm really hungry." (Holidays, so no school food)
"Jump in the van and we'll take you to get something." (Off down to shop where we'll pay for it ourselves or to one of the groups we work with who do foodbank / foodshare work)

"Why are you hitting your brother?" (Both about 10yrs)
"Because he hits me."
"Why are you hitting your sister?"
"Because my dad hits me when I annoy him, and she's annoying me." (Check of system shows Dad for domestic abuse, so a vulnerable person report off to social work)

We as a nation are so scared about being seen to be 'oppressing' people's liberty and rights, that we would rather let children suffer neglect, hunger. harm and die than intervene in a way that would protect that child from the people hurting them - their parents.

For everything else we get right or wrong in this country, you'd think we'd sort this out eh?
 
Well this has gone off in weird and wonderful directions, with the usual smattering of abuse for good measure. :D

Going back to my original post, I just don't think that the majority of people realise that we are seeing generations of abandoned children coming into this world. By abandoned, I don't mean street urchins asking for more, I mean children that on the face of it, are living in a safe environment with family, but in fact are in dangerous situations with neglect being a core part of their life.

Looking back to one hundred years ago, you could understand why that happened.

Looking back to fifty years ago, you could kind of see why that happened.

In 2019 where we spend billions on bizarre projects, waste millions on vanity structures, or let someone win £75,000,000 on the lottery, and where we can communicate around the world instantaneously, we are unable to ensure that every child in this country is raised to a safe, measured standard of nutrition and education, free from physical, sexual or mental abuse in the family home.

In the UK, we have the Social Work Services. An incredibly overworked, inefficient government function which from my own personal experience, is often staffed by utter liberals with their heads in the cloud. A classic example of this is:

June, mother of Chloe who is 6, Sam who is 9 and Peter who is 14, is a junkie with alcohol dependency. After many referrals from Police and the NHS, the SWS finally take the children from June and put them in the care of Margaret, June's 50 year old mum.

Margaret tries as hard as she can, but is almost incapable of managing three children, who all have various needs due to poor upbringing and education, especially Peter who is getting involved in drugs, alcohol and violence.

SWS will almost force grandparents or immediate family to take the children of an abusive or dangerous home because it 'keeps the family together' - it's nothing to do with that. It's less paperwork for them. I've had these grannies in tears in front of me because they never wanted these kids and can't look after them but SWS won't do anything more about it because they've been signed off onto the granny.

SWS rant over.

You walk the streets within these deprived areas and you could easily take the snapshot from the 60's and 70's of slum Britain with the dirty kids looking dishevelled and malnourished and place it side by side a shot from 2019 and the children would look almost the same in terms of how poorly cared for they are.

I've been in hundreds of homes where the house is upside down (and I mean, a total ******* riot) with festering bins, no carpets, hungry and dirty children but nothing gets done about it.

I've arrested and taken parents from the home on a Section 12 Children and Young Persons Act just so something would get done to protect the kids in the house and it never seems to make a ******* difference.

So what, as a country, are we doing about it? In the grand scheme of things, not a ******* thing. Local Authorities are cutting back on almost all their provisions for youth engagement and child welfare. In another thread I mentioned that I as a cop, am the one who's pulling in two youth agencies and organising leases for them in a deprived area just to try and make inroads into the amount of youth disorder and violence that's going on.

Someone else mentioned about the adult for every child scheme in Scotland - it would never have worked because it would've become a box ticking exercise of the highest order.

So if we as a country wanted to do something about this, then the measures would need to be drastic. I thought about solutions the other day, and this was the one that stuck with me, though it gets pretty extreme (this is on the basis of the government putting money in to create a new arm which would be resourced properly):

1. Every child under the age of 16 gets a one to one visit from a qualified person to ascertain their safety and well being first and foremost, and records brought up to date. Plenty of instances of children dying or being killed in the home because they were off the radar.

2. Every school, doctor and dentist submits a report to this department on every child on their roll as do the police for any under 16 they have on their databases.

3. Traffic light system is used to identify those at risk of harm. Amber being those where extra attention is required and red being the ones with immediate action required.

4. A Unit Score which relates to a large number of factors. The higher the score the greater the risk in that category.

Green
No concerns, annual monitoring unless they reach a pre-determined Unit Score and come close to Amber. Then it's pre-emptive guidance and signposting if required.

Amber
Where an amber is identified, a consultation with the parents initially to establish what's going on / what's gone wrong. This would potentially help signpost parents who are struggling to proper support mechanisms, be it financial, mental, etc. Then a meeting is held with the child and an appropriate third party neutral observer - no parental presence. Questions asked about how they're doing, how's school, etc. A general sounding if you like of the child, their communication abilities, their appearance and physical attributes.

Where work is required to improve standards, the parents are given advice and guidance, but it's taken as a mark against them which adds to the Unit Score.

Follow up visits at regular intervals to see how the family is progressing, and any shortcomings, failures to improve, etc, all add to the Unit Score.

Once the Unit Score reaches a pre-determined level, it tips them over into Red.

Red
Immediate evaluation as to whether or not the child needs to be removed to a place of safety.

The parents or guardians with responsibility are sent on a course of learning to improve on the points they've fallen down on in terms of care, hygiene, nutrition, etc. This course must be a pass or else they risk the child being removed to a place of safety.

Monitored care. The family is given a 'holiday' at a Family Centre, where they live in suitable accommodation with kitchen, etc, and they are monitored in terms of how they work together as a family, how they feed the children, speak to them, their own habits as parents, etc.

This is to see if there's any chance of improvement in the behaviour that has led to the child being classed as red and at risk of harm.

Ultimately, if the Unit Score hits a pre-determined point, the child is removed. If a child is rated as red, during intervention, all the parents can do is try to get the score down and drop into Amber and hopefully green.



Obviously a scrappy and rough idea, but answer me this:

What the **** else can we do when there are thousands of people with children who just don't give a flying **** about their welfare and well being?

Some conversation examples I've had in the last week:

"Where's your mum?" (Playing on pavement of a main roadway, 8yrs old)
"She's asleep in bed."
"At this time?" (10am)
"Uhuh... She's had some of her special juice and was tired" (that's methadone in case you're wondering).

"When was the last time you had something to eat?" (I always ask kids this)
"Last night"
"It's 4pm now..."
"I know. I'm really hungry." (Holidays, so no school food)
"Jump in the van and we'll take you to get something." (Off down to shop where we'll pay for it ourselves or to one of the groups we work with who do foodbank / foodshare work)

"Why are you hitting your brother?" (Both about 10yrs)
"Because he hits me."
"Why are you hitting your sister?"
"Because my dad hits me when I annoy him, and she's annoying me." (Check of system shows Dad for domestic abuse, so a vulnerable person report off to social work)

We as a nation are so scared about being seen to be 'oppressing' people's liberty and rights, that we would rather let children suffer neglect, hunger. harm and die than intervene in a way that would protect that child from the people hurting them - their parents.

For everything else we get right or wrong in this country, you'd think we'd sort this out eh?
You need counseling mate. You've got a bloody good sense of humour and are generally sound but something has wormed it's way inside you now.
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
A like is a bit inappropriate, but you know what I mean.

Not a lot constructive gets enacted because there's neither funding nor votes in it.
The country is in danger of turning Germanic, in the way that you need a qual or chit to assist in any way, and those already with these chits are either disillusioned, disinterested or incapable of addressing a problem.
I could suggest things that have helped in the past, but apparently they're old fashioned, outside the current MO or not PC enough.
While not in the UK, I recognise and empathise with these problems but am approaching the point where one thinks I'll look after my own first and the rest once I'm done

I realise that's neither PC nor a solution but sometimes it's like pomping a porcupine.
 
Now do you ever think your social welfare benefits are going to bleed you folks dry!?
Not paying them will cost more. Look at your bloated police, courts and prison system for example
 
You need counseling mate. You've got a bloody good sense of humour and are generally sound but something has wormed it's way inside you now.
Didn't want to be the first to say it, but you have a point.

This post reads like someone else wrote it.
Not meant in a negative way to the OP, it just sounds like this has gotten under your skin. Understandable by any means.
 
@MrBane how you haven't beaten someone to death with a fence post is beyond me.
In the family I have a crackhead thats had 3 kids put into care, the oldest has had her kid put into care as she is unfit to be a parent.
said crackhead is in her early 40's. So all in all I think Hitler had some valid points.
 
...We as a nation are so scared about being seen to be 'oppressing' people's liberty and rights, that we would rather let children suffer neglect, hunger. harm and die than intervene in a way that would protect that child from the people hurting them - their parents...
That, right there. Address the culture of entitlement, instant gratification and zero responsibility/consequences and you're around 90% there.
 
Not paying them will cost more. Look at your bloated police, courts and prison system for example
I suggest you peruse the facts before making such statements, as the police to population ratio in England & Wales is significantly lower than in almost all of Europe, despite (or perhaps the cause of) our crime rate being much higher.
Even Scotland has a ratio more than 50% greater than that of E&W.
 
That is a fair one actually. I ******* hated school and even if they had taught that shite I wouldn’t have listened.

I was way too busy staring at Natalie’s arse and thinking about what lessons I could bunk off to go and ride my BMX.
I'm still like that sometimes, only at work.

And her name isn't Natalie.
 
So it's been a particularly brutal day in work and I've seen things today I never wanted to see.

My question is simple:

Should the mother to be and any applicable partner during pregnancy be made, by law, to complete a training course in basic parenting?

Effectively, achieve a basic qualification to care for and raise a child in a responsible manner?

This would include such areas as:

  1. How to wash your child and maintain basic hygiene
  2. How to feed and provide nourishment
  3. How to care for the child in the home and provide a safe environment
  4. How to talk and communicate with your child
  5. The impact of drink and drugs on a child's mental and physical health
  6. Child deaths - the avoidable mistakes
If you failed to attend or failed to complete the course to a satisfactory level, it would be the first flag for the NHS / Social Work Services to sit up and take notice of you and provide that extra support and guidance or take measures to protect the child.

There are many reasons why I fully support this concept, which I'll go into in more detail tomorrow.

For now, I'm going to lie down in a quiet room and try to mind block the last twelve hours. It's been one of those days where it's hard not to start crying.

i dont know if its been said already but the first two are done in the hospital, they wont discharge you until you can prove you can feed and clean the baby. after that you see the healthworker pretty regularly until the baby is putting on weight steadily*

after that though you're on your own. my eldest is in primary school now and although they talk a good game about healthy eating whenever i as my son what he had for lunch its pizza/chickenburger/ham sandwich.

you could send everyone on a 2 month course but to be honest if people are neglecting their kids its either through bone idleness, malice, or them getting caught in their parents problems, none of which you can legislate for.

I've read a bit recently about Norway's pretty harsh child protection services laws. people get up in arms because there are some cases where the systems seems harsh and inflexible and kids are removed from families when at face value they should not be. I'd like to see the data on how their system stacks up against ours for outcomes for the kids involved, both systems will have tragic cases at the fringes (neglect in ours, unnecessary family breakup in theirs) but which one has the most positive outcome for society?


*our 3rd wasnt so they were back every other day until they were happy he was gaining weight, if he hadnt they'd have taken him back into hospital in order to keep an eye on him/us, this was very big brother-ish but i can understand why its applied with no exceptions.
 
For everything else we get right or wrong in this country, you'd think we'd sort this out eh?
I work in secure residential care in Scotland so get to interact with the end results of 13-17 years of abuse and neglect of some of our most vulnerable young people. It never ceases to amaze me that even in the 21st century, the volume of adults who are unfit to have children through reading background reports of some of our service uers.
 

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