Should the army bring back Junior Leaders?

#1
Evening all, got permission at the gate to pop in.

Not an ex RAC JLR, which is were i originally posted this, but i have often wondered if any one had ever done a survey into how the careers of junior leaders, armoured in particular, had progressed in terms of non commissioned rank achieved, commissioned from the ranks, length of service etc, in comparison let us say to an equal number of 18 year old recruits over the time span of the regiment.

Given that times have changed dramatically since the wall came down, JLR's were closed presumably due to the decreased threat and to release instructors/vehicles etc back to units, as well as the obvious cost cutting. We now have a situation were recruiting is high, the threat(s) has returned albiet in different forms and locations, would we be wise to think to the future and bolster our pool of trained personell?
Obviously the economic situation changed but it always will, youth unemployment at the moment running at 900k+
means that there is a pool of talent who will be acting as a drain on the economy on reaching 18, and jumping onto the benefits wagon, counter that by giving those that want it miltary training during the interim period, with an obligation then to complete a term of contract.


Funding would be an issue of course, bases? well we have a few doing fck* all. Instructors, staff etc, we have a pool of "combat experienced" soldiers many of whom would perhaps welcome the end run of their careers being used to pass on that knowledge, in fact why not use recently discharged per's on civilian contracts to teach certain phases?


My question is then,
Would the concept of JLR be valid today in terms of "value for money" in that they would/will end up as leaders in the adult army, a large number of young people would be given an opportunity to receive training,and in addition potentially reduce the unemployment figures in that sector. from personal experience i have no axe to grind either way, good and bad from both systems, but i feel that cuts allowing it might be an item for discussion.

This would apply all to arms of course , with the continuation of apprentice specific to arm/corp training
 
#2
Well having been a junior bleeder at IJLB in 1979 I think JL regiments are a great idea. As far as I understood they were scrapped as a cost saving measure and not for any other reason.
 

Auld-Yin

ADC
Kit Reviewer
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Reviews Editor
#3
Yes, I think that Junior Leader Regiments can make a comeback. Where will the money come from? Well quite a bit can come from the pseudo college courses that school leavers are sent on. Also, there will be the money spent on dole and support services being turned into wages for a meaningful job.

Will the army benefit? Undoubtedly. However this should only be brought in if a full career can be offered; no point in laying on all that training if it can't be used.

Will it happen? Not a chance in hell!!!
 
#4
My question is then,
Would the concept of JLR be valid today in terms of "value for money" in that they would/will end up as leaders in the adult army, a large number of young people would be given an opportunity to receive training,and in addition potentially reduce the unemployment figures in that sector. from personal experience i have no axe to grind either way, good and bad from both systems, but i feel that cuts allowing it might be an item for discussion.
A bit like the Army foundation college you mean ^_~
 

daywalker

LE
Kit Reviewer
#7
From what I've seen of recruits coming from AFC I've not been impressed to be honest, I think there needs to be a harder version of AFC along the same lines as the old "hitler youth" brigade especially for infantry recruits.
 
#8
The diet-coke version of the Junior Army.

Bring it back, bring it all back. Junior Soldiers, Junior Leaders and the Apprentice Tradesmen. Don't know about the RAC, but it is STILL teh case that the vast majority seniors in the Signals have a Junior intake background.
So now that we don’t have individual initial training Regiments for each arm and service, we should introduce individual training establishments for juniors in each arm and service just as the army is about to cut another 7000 from the establishment to be followed by even more (possibly as many as 15000) come the ‘glorious retreat’

Yep, makes complete sense :-D:-D
 
#9
From what I've seen of recruits coming from AFC I've not been impressed to be honest, I think there needs to be a harder version of AFC along the same lines as the old "hitler youth" brigade especially for infantry recruits.
Is that before or after they have been through their phase 2 establishments for their continued Trg/Education before being unleashed on the Field Army
 
#10
So now that we don’t have individual initial training Regiments for each arm and service, we should introduce individual training establishments for juniors in each arm and service just as the army is about to cut another 7000 from the establishment to be followed by even more (possibly as many as 15000) come the ‘glorious retreat’

Yep, makes complete sense :-D:-D
Makes more sense than most things happening at the mo :D

Where did I say individual arm/corps establishments?

You do know the difference between teh three junior branches? Most capbadges had the first two, technical capbadges had all three in many cases.
 
#11
Well having been a junior bleeder at IJLB in 1979 I think JL regiments are a great idea. As far as I understood they were scrapped as a cost saving measure and not for any other reason.
I also believe that there was a change in the education act that had some sort of effect on recruitment. prior to it the school leaving age was low and therefore the catchment for recruitment was high for boys, I was a 16yr old when I reported to camp.
 
#12
Evening all, got permission at the gate to pop in.

Not an ex RAC JLR, which is were i originally posted this, but i have often wondered if any one had ever done a survey into how the careers of junior leaders, armoured in particular, had progressed in terms of non commissioned rank achieved, commissioned from the ranks, length of service etc, in comparison let us say to an equal number of 18 year old recruits over the time span of the regiment.

Given that times have changed dramatically since the wall came down, JLR's were closed presumably due to the decreased threat and to release instructors/vehicles etc back to units, as well as the obvious cost cutting. We now have a situation were recruiting is high, the threat(s) has returned albiet in different forms and locations, would we be wise to think to the future and bolster our pool of trained personell?
Obviously the economic situation changed but it always will, youth unemployment at the moment running at 900k+
means that there is a pool of talent who will be acting as a drain on the economy on reaching 18, and jumping onto the benefits wagon, counter that by giving those that want it miltary training during the interim period, with an obligation then to complete a term of contract.


Funding would be an issue of course, bases? well we have a few doing fck* all. Instructors, staff etc, we have a pool of "combat experienced" soldiers many of whom would perhaps welcome the end run of their careers being used to pass on that knowledge, in fact why not use recently discharged per's on civilian contracts to teach certain phases?


My question is then,
Would the concept of JLR be valid today in terms of "value for money" in that they would/will end up as leaders in the adult army, a large number of young people would be given an opportunity to receive training,and in addition potentially reduce the unemployment figures in that sector. from personal experience i have no axe to grind either way, good and bad from both systems, but i feel that cuts allowing it might be an item for discussion.

This would apply all to arms of course , with the continuation of apprentice specific to arm/corp training
"Of Course", the granddads cry. "Give them SLR, puttees and boots DMS. For one isn't a real soldier unless one wears such contraptions, fires a real rifle, and all is returned to the glorious days of the BAOR."

Or, rally against the current round of cuts and those upcoming in 2015 (guaranteed) rather than wanking yourselves silly over ideas that are frankly shite. Call for the nurse and get to bed, its past your bed times.
 
#13
Makes more sense than most things happening at the mo :D

Where did I say individual arm/corps establishments?

You do know the difference between teh three junior branches? Most capbadges had the first two, technical capbadges had all three in many cases.
Bring it back, bring it all back.
I certainly don’t disagree with your first sentence, and I think I can just about manage to remember the little red stripe wearing bast*rds when they arrived in Minley :-D:-D
 

daywalker

LE
Kit Reviewer
#14
Is that before or after they have been through their phase 2 establishments for their continued Trg/Education before being unleashed on the Field Army
Whilst in phase 2. Across the board they have been weaker and had worse attitudes than recruits who start in adult entry, which can still mean 17 year olds. We had 12 join a training plt at wk7 and 2 weeks later there were 3 left.
 
#15
Whilst in phase 2. Across the board they have been weaker and had worse attitudes than recruits who start in adult entry, which can still mean 17 year olds. We had 12 join a training plt at wk7 and 2 weeks later there were 3 left.
Now that does take me back to the good old junior leaders/apprentices :-D:-D
 
#16
I certainly don’t disagree with your first sentence, and I think I can just about manage to remember the little red stripe wearing bast*rds when they arrived in Minley :-D:-D
Junior Soldiers - just too young for adult entry. So they joined at 17 (IIRC) did basic and then polished things until they were old enough join an adult training unit/unit.

Junior Leaders - 1 year course (IIRC the min age was 16 3/4). Course covered Basic and lots of leadership and academic type stuff.

Apprentice Tradesman - 2 year course, min age 15 3/4. Some trades had a further 6 months of training AFTER the two years. Full spectrum of education including full trade training (less a few bits in a few trades as mentioned above), education and leadership.

Throw in the fact that there were indeed Junior/Apprentic NCOs up to the rank of RSM and you have a serious incubator for future leaders. I remember at Harrogate teh AT RSM (probably 18 years old) took the graduation parade. Infront of all of their peers, the families and even the Guards RSM that had coached him to that point. On parade approx 500 peers, and about 100 odd sets of families (I know I had about 7 guests).

You simply can't click your fingers to create that sort of training.

I'm not saying that the Junior Army is the be all and end all. But it will be interesting to see what happens in about 2015 when the last of the 'old school' Junior Leaders leave, about 2018 for the Apprentices.
 
#17
Throw in the fact that there were indeed Junior/Apprentic NCOs up to the rank of RSM and you have a serious incubator for future leaders. I remember at Harrogate teh AT RSM (probably 18 years old) took the graduation parade. Infront of all of their peers, the families and even the Guards RSM that had coached him to that point. On parade approx 500 peers, and about 100 odd sets of families (I know I had about 7 guests).

You simply can't click your fingers to create that sort of training.
Thanks for the history lesson, I really didn’t know that, being as I joined in 1983 at 17 years old ^_~

Ref your bold a bit like this you mean

“The parade was led by the college's top student, Junior Regimental Sergeant Major Aaron Marsh from Telford, Shropshire, who escorted the Reviewing Officer and commanded the parade as it marched off the square”.
 
#18
I joined JIB at Shornecliffe in 1971 at 15 years of age and spent 2 years there. I then went to the RGJ depot at Winchester and joined a training platoon for about 5 weeks to learn Light Division drill, squeeze in a fortnight at a sunny holiday camp in Wales called Sennybridge, do the Passing out parade and then off to Germany and shortly afterwards, my first tour of Northern Ireland. Boy service was training and actual soldiering without any of the dangerous bit's in it, i.e. operational postings. The school leaving age changed while I was at Shornecliffe from 15 to 16 years and so the future intakes just did the one year.

Should they bring it back? Well, It didn't do me any harm I suppose and it wouldn't do any harm for a lot of todays young lad's who might take to a military lifestyle.
 

daywalker

LE
Kit Reviewer
#19
The problem is these little feckers arrive at phase 2 still thinking they wear rank and don't like the fact they go back to being normal recruits, put that together with the fact they get wrapped in cotton wool in the fluffy world of AFC and there you have it.
 
#20
The problem is these little feckers arrive at phase 2 still thinking they wear rank and don't like the fact they go back to being normal recruits, put that together with the fact they get wrapped in cotton wool in the fluffy world of AFC and there you have it.
I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer I gave some moments ago :-D:-D