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Should British Police be armed as standard 2018?

Should British police be routinely armed?

  • Yes

    Votes: 78 43.1%
  • No

    Votes: 103 56.9%

  • Total voters
    181
Without going into specifics on the AFO curriculum - the actual amount of time spent on SAA is relatively small compared to the tactics side which obviously has a Police centric focus. NPFI's are critical for delivering the training from start to finish for this reason.

2 weeks (plus at least every 6 months range refreshers) abstraction for a lot of HO forces IS a big deal - they struggle to get their officers through annual PST & first aid refreshers and retain something resembling a minimum staffing level!

Routine arming can be done but as others have stated will take years - initial costs will be huge and are simply unaffordable; then there's the culture shift and persuading officers that they won't be hung out to dry for making an honest judgement call based on split second honest held decisions.

INMHO I think all officers should have this additional tool on their belt. It won't magically stop them having all of the essential people skills needed for the job!
 
The instructors need to be qualified National Police Firearms Instructors .


You do not need to be a specialist police ninja to teach the safe use of, and how to shoot a firearm. Police to teach the legal aspects of use, yes, but the basics of use and handling are basics that could be delivered by any suitable qualified instructor. Having said that, don’t outsource it to Crapita.
 
You do not need to be a specialist police ninja to teach the safe use of, and how to shoot a firearm. Police to teach the legal aspects of use, yes, but the basics of use and handling are basics that could be delivered by any suitable qualified instructor. Having said that, don’t outsource it to Crapita.

It all part and parcel of the one thing, handling and use, including judgement, weapons retention and law , most of the instructors are also tactical advisors , there are some civilian instructors but they need to hold the same qualification.
 
It all part and parcel of the one thing, handling and use, including judgement, weapons retention and law , most of the instructors are also tactical advisors , there are some civilian instructors but they need to hold the same qualification.


Realy?

So I need a special legally aware ninja to teach me to shoot straight and handle a firearm without shooting myself?
Basic firearms handling and shooting technique is just that, a taught skill. It can be taught by approved instructors on ranges. The other stuff could be taught in the classroom with training weapons.
The Police need to stop fetishising firearms, they are nothing but tools to do a job.
 
Routine arming can be done but as others have stated will take years - initial costs will be huge and are simply unaffordable; then there's the culture shift and persuading officers that they won't be hung out to dry for making an honest judgement call based on split second honest held decisions.

I can see a small flaw in your conditional statement there.

;)
 
Realy?

So I need a special legally aware ninja to teach me to shoot straight and handle a firearm without shooting myself?
Basic firearms handling and shooting technique is just that, a taught skill. It can be taught by approved instructors on ranges. The other stuff could be taught in the classroom with training weapons.
The Police need to stop fetishising firearms, they are nothing but tools to do a job.

I'd agree with that. I have been shooting since I was 7 when the old man taught me, I went on to the school air rifle team, county police smallbore rifle and pistol teams, club instructor (Germany, UK, USA), practical shooting competitor and even carried a gat for work in civvys and uniform receiving the requisite training. I try and put an absolute minimum of 500 rounds a week downrange with a hoped for minimum of 1000.*

Shooting is nothing more than understanding and application of the basics. What the military would term the marksmanship principles. Apply those correctly and you will hit the target everytime.

Tactics though is something else as is making legally sound shoot, no shoot decisions in a split second.

I can teach you tactics with sticks in your hands and you making bang, bang noises. Indeed, all the organisations that matter in Tier 1, Tier 2 and specialist police firearms rehearse tactics with unloaded firearms umpteen times before putting a live round anywhere near a magazine. I can even state that I have seen superior tactically competent airsofters than some official units/teams.

Note: * I am fortunate to live in the US where I can pretty much own what I want and I reload my own ammo.
 
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@Effendi @PhotEx

It's not whether the trainer can get Constable Savage to remember the four marksmanship principles, or whether they can train them to quote s3 Criminal Law Act 1967 excatly.

What is required is a chain sufficient to withstand a (oh I don't know) seven year inquiry and multiple re-trials as the UK court systems tears the officer apart.

When you got to court on a use of force issue, your training record and actions will be dissected in miniscule detail by highly competent barristers.

Even to the extent that the employment of Home Office authorised techniques will be portrayed as unreasonable, unsafe and unwise to suit that current prosecution...... even if the officer safety trainers who are giving evidence to the court can see that this will require them to remove tactics from the manual.

So you have the entertaining sight of fratricide between the standards branch (desperate to meet their targets and please their masters) and the officer safety training branch (who can often see the logical extension of the stated case).

UK policing is a uniquely perilous profession - frequently I needed more armour in the back of my vest than the front, and I used to throw parties for myself and whoever was most recently in the poo for doing our jobs as "Dolchstoß-fest".

(Dolchstoß being the myth that the German Army was "stabbed in the back" at the end of World War One. My bosses enjoyed my sarcasm and love of history).
 
Realy?

So I need a special legally aware ninja to teach me to shoot straight and handle a firearm without shooting myself?
Basic firearms handling and shooting technique is just that, a taught skill. It can be taught by approved instructors on ranges. The other stuff could be taught in the classroom with training weapons.
The Police need to stop fetishising firearms, they are nothing but tools to do a job.
Yes, yes you do as has been pointed out several times by people that know what they're doing..

At the very least you're effectively saying that you need one person to teach the SAA bit and then another to teach the tactics therefore adding another set of costs to employ that second person!

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
 
Realy?

So I need a special legally aware ninja to teach me to shoot straight and handle a firearm without shooting myself?
Basic firearms handling and shooting technique is just that, a taught skill. It can be taught by approved instructors on ranges. The other stuff could be taught in the classroom with training weapons.
The Police need to stop fetishising firearms, they are nothing but tools to do a job.
You seem to be forgetting the most important aspect in all of this. Money.
All these guns and training the coppers needs to be paid for. Where is the money coming from? Even if we trained up say 100,000 coppers for the job, the ongoing logistical costs are unaffordable.
 
So stagger it and, it's not like the police don't already prioritise around risk.

Start with uniform, first response officers, then level 2 intervention types teams, then foot patrols, then whatever is left of Neighbourhood policing. If you work an 8-4 in an office you're right at the bottom of the list (perhaps not even at all). If you transfer into one of the aforementioned groups, before you go you need to do the 2 week course and qualify.

Yes, they'd be in the first year of the suggested 5 year process. That's still means finding the time, facilities and money to train 30k people for 2 weeks pa which is the equivalent of about 1300 less cops available for duty each year.
 
You do not need to be a specialist police ninja to teach the safe use of, and how to shoot a firearm. Police to teach the legal aspects of use, yes, but the basics of use and handling are basics that could be delivered by any suitable qualified instructor. Having said that, don’t outsource it to Crapita.
Seeing as how we don't have much pistol shooting done outside the police & mil where are these suitably qualified instructors going to come from in the numbers needed?
 
You seem to be forgetting the most important aspect in all of this. Money.
All these guns and training the coppers needs to be paid for. Where is the money coming from? Even if we trained up say 100,000 coppers for the job, the ongoing logistical costs are unaffordable.

More with less mate. Didn't you get that memo?
 
I'd agree with that. I have been shooting since I was 7 when the old man taught me, I went on to the school air rifle team, county police smallbore rifle and pistol teams, club instructor (Germany, UK, USA), practical shooting competitor and even carried a gat for work in civvys and uniform receiving the requisite training. I try and put an absolute minimum of 500 rounds a week downrange with a hoped for minimum of 1000.*

Shooting is nothing more than understanding and application of the basics. What the military would term the marksmanship principles. Apply those correctly and you will hit the target everytime.

Tactics though is something else as is making legally sound shoot, no shoot decisions in a split second.

I can teach you tactics with sticks in your hands and you making bang, bang noises. Indeed, all the organisations that matter in Tier 1, Tier 2 and specialist police firearms rehearse tactics with unloaded firearms umpteen times before putting a live round anywhere near a magazine. I can even state that I have seen superior tactically competent airsofters than some official units/teams.

Note: * I am fortunate to live in the US where I can pretty much own what I want and I reload my own ammo.

And before you ask - No, owning our own guns and loading our own SAA won't make it logistically easier or financially cheaper either. Just thought I'd get that out there.
 
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