Shots fired in the South China Sea - 1 killed.

Discussion in 'The Intelligence Cell' started by smartascarrots, May 10, 2013.

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  1. LINK

    One 65 year-old killed in contested waters and his boat (unarmed, civillian) limping home with 32 holes in it.
  2. Nobody's replied to your cleverly worded message so far. You said "shots fired in the South China Sea" and yet if we actually follow the link there's no sign of the PRC or PLAN. How can we bash China if they have the ill grace to not show up? Imagine the wails of disappointment you caused.

    This can't be a coincidence, so obviously the Chinese (through you as their Manchurian Candidate agent) intended for all this to happen as part of their plans for world domination.
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  3. I'll admit to a mischievous bent when I chose the thread title but it still seems worth taking at least a semi-serious look at. We've got at least one disputant nation (through its Coastguard) willing to use armed force to enforce its claims over other parties regardless of the potential for tragedy.
  4. I have mixed feelings about the whole affair and try to get information from both sides, mainly because I have close personal connections with both countries (my longtime girlfriend comes from the Philippines, though of the Chinese minority, while a very close female friend, whom I have known since secondary school, is half Taiwanese).
    From what I could find out the incident took place in the Balintang Channel, which is actually south of the northernmost Filipino island.
    Apparently fishermen from both countries used these waters informally and traditionally in the past. But with the recent tensions in the South China Sea, with mainland Chinese and also Taiwanese claims for almost the whole South China Sea (as both governments see themselves as the legitimate successors of the old Chinese empire and up to the 19th century very little happened in East Asia without the approval and permission of the Chinese emperor), tempers ran high. I also have to say that the overstretched Filipino navy and coast guard are not always very professional and can be triggerhappy. There were also in the past rampant examples of poaching in clearly Filipino waters by mainly mainland Chinese fishermen taking advantage of the low presence of thev Filipino navy (e.g. a few weeks ago a large mainland Chinese trawler got stuck on a coral reef in a protected zone in the middle of the Sulu Sea southwest of Zamboanga, in waters which are not disputed and are clearly part of the Filipino territorial waters. This trawler, which first was not even supposed to enter this underwater nature preserve, had an additional cargo of cadavers of some protected land animal on board, which are being used in traditional Chinese medicine).
    The current Taiwanese demand for an apology on the other hand sounds too much to me like the Philippines having to recognise Taiwanese (and mainland Chinese, they jumped right on the bandwagon supporting Taiwan) claims for the disputed waters. Basically the Taiwanese government said that since traditionally Taiwanese fishermen have been operating in Filipino waters, they should be allowed to continue to do so. To me it sounds as if China and Taiwan want to ban the neighbouring countries from using the resources in whatever they consider their territories, but at the same time insist that they should be able to use their neighbour´s territories at their will.
    The Filipino government has said that they will not obey the deadline, but instead wait for the results of a investigation.
    Links are e.g. on the Filipino Daily Inquirer website, e.g. Taiwan beefs up patrols in waters near Philippines | Inquirer Global Nation.
    If you read the comments on these links you´ll see that the general opinion of the Chinese commenters is that the Chinese werev first in East Asia and that the uppity Filipinos should be taught a lesson, so that they´ll learn to obey their betters. Btw., I´m quite sure that, same as the old Chinese seafarers who traded through all the South China Sea in previous centuries, Filipno sailors did the same with China. Only up to the Philippines becoming a Spanish colony, there existed no strong central government wiith a record keeping bureaucracy.
  5. There's a nightclub in Angeles City with a sign like that. You can leave your gun at reception and get it back on the way out. Women aren't allowed in either (there's loads of GRO's inside).
  6. Or this rice farmer out in Iloilo province, who came riding by on his moped, t-shirt, straw hat, old jeans and flip flops and on his back an M16A1 and an US Army web belt full of magazine pouches around his waist.
    But on the other hand, when my Missus and myself go target shooting in the Philippines, we do it on a well regulated shooting range under the disciplined control of her brother, who is a police officer and who also provides the gats (I usually buy the ammunition). I doubt that any of you guys would find a fault in the procedures we adhere to when we are out shooting.
  7. Courtesy of the South China Morning Post:

    The announcement came just under one hour after the RoC deadline for a response expired. One fly in the ointment is that the Philippines government is using their Representative rather than through official state-to-state relations - in order to avoid violating their acceptance of the 'One China' policy. The RoC Ministry of Foreign Affairs deem this unacceptable as they've couched their protest in government-to-government terms and expect a similar response. Accepting anything else amounts to admitting that they're not really a government which would be political suicide for President Ma.
  8. But openly recognising Taiwan by sending an ambassador would really piss off mainland China and cause all kinds of trouble for the Philippines, which would be politicakl suicide for the Filipino President Aquino.

    Btw., I´ve read that one big issue is that Taiwan and mainland China have big industrialised fleets of trawlers, while the Filipino fishermen are mostly family businesses operating small and inefficient boats. They are afraid that the Chinese / Taiwanese fleets will empty their fishing grounds.

    The issue is now that both the PRC and Taiwan are getting increasingly nationalist and imperialistic, demanding that the uppity Filipinos should be punished and shown who is the master in the region (being a Boxhead, I´m always sceptical if somebody pulls the former empire card. It would be as if us Germans would make claims for Sicily because it used to be a part of the Holy Roman Emprire of German Nation in the Middle Ages, or the Italians under Il Duce trying to recreate the Roman Empire. Both the PRC and Taiwain see themselves as successors of the old Chinese empire). The Filipinos on the other hand say that they feel bad for this fisherman and his family, but that they had enough of bigger nations pushing them around.
  9. It puts the Filipino government in a delicate position and no mistake. They get a tremendous boost to their economy from overseas workers sending money home and one of the favoured East Asian destinations is the Beautiful Island. Better all round if the safety-catch had stayed on, really.

    When the Scarborough Shoal affair last bubbled up, there were lots of pictures of vessels manoeuvring around each other in the region. I don’t recall seeing any large civvy vessels on either side. The biggest vessels in the area were a brace of Filipino frigates. Most of the PRCs fishing fleet are fairly small trawlers. The dead chap was certainly on a father-and-son owner-operator vessel and not a factory vessel. The most recent information I can find is from 2010 but it's illustrative. Lots of people fishing catch a lot of fish, I guess.



    D'you know, it’s almost as if an innocent civvy exercising rights under International law wasn’t shot dead by a government agency. Personally, I’d see that as deserving of punishment, regardless of who’d done it.
  10. Sort'a Codwar like then?
  11. What was the butcher's bill for the Cod War, then. Any 65 year olds get shot?
  12. My mate needed new underwear and decided that it wasn't a life on the ocean waves for him.
  13. I mentioned before that parts of the Filipino military / police from my own experience are not very well trained and less than professional. I never excused the killing of an innocent fisherman.
    What I´m worried about is that this incident will now be used to fan nationalism on all three sides. Actually the border of the EEC between Taiwan and the Philippines should run midway between the northernmost Filipino island and the southernmost part of Taiwan. The problem is that if the Philippines and Taiwan sign such an agreement, this will be seen by the PRC as interference in their rights as, in their opinion, sole successors of the Chinese empires and will cause retalitions against the Philippines.
    IMO all coutries in the region should accept the propesed sea borders and EECs of the United Nations.
    Effectively we Europeans also have overlapping EECs in the North Sea. We managed to divide the North Sea like a cake, with each neighbouring country getting a slice depending on the length of it´s coastline. That most oil and gas went to the UK and Norway, so be it, tough shit for us.
    But imagine the uproar if e.g. Germany would have claimed practically all of the North Sea, becaue some old Friesian or Frankish script said that they had been travelling there first.
  14. Walther, they claimed nearly all of Europe in WW2 due some nonsense from the Middle Ages.....
  15. See post #9
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