Shooting out of tyres....

chrisg46

LE
Book Reviewer
#1
Not entirely sure if this is the right thread for this, so mods feel free to move elsewhere if appropriate?

I heard once that attempting to shoot out tyres in a speeding car is a waste of time, partly because of the increased air pressure inside the tyre increases the strength of the tyre wall, but mainly because the speed of the tyre surface would deflect the round. i.e. a small pointy lead pellet moving at 900 ish metres per second. Will that penetrate a rubber wall that is travelling at approx right angles at xxx m/s?

I am inclined to think it wont, although it would depend on the speed of the car at the time.
And yes, i do know a much easier method of stopping a car, but was wondering if anyone actually has experience of this?
 
#2
Not too sure of the physics but there is a chance that the round could be deflected at certain angles.

If you can aim for a tyre though you'd be much better shooting at the engine block or cab. Whilst you may not puncture the engine block there are lots of vulnerable bits such as wires, fuel feeder pipes and even batteries that aren't so tough.
 
#3
chocolate_frog said:
Not too sure of the physics but there is a chance that the round could be deflected at certain angles.

If you can aim for a tyre though you'd be much better shooting at the engine block or cab. Whilst you may not puncture the engine block there are lots of vulnerable bits such as wires, fuel feeder pipes and even batteries that aren't so tough.
Plus hitting a spinning wheel on a moving vehicle would be a fluke shot - the engine bay and driver are all bigger targets.

Rincewind
 
#4
chrisg46 said:
Not entirely sure if this is the right thread for this, so mods feel free to move elsewhere if appropriate?

I heard once that attempting to shoot out tyres in a speeding car is a waste of time, partly because of the increased air pressure inside the tyre increases the strength of the tyre wall, but mainly because the speed of the tyre surface would deflect the round. i.e. a small pointy lead pellet moving at 900 ish metres per second. Will that penetrate a rubber wall that is travelling at approx right angles at xxx m/s?

I am inclined to think it wont, although it would depend on the speed of the car at the time.
And yes, i do know a much easier method of stopping a car, but was wondering if anyone actually has experience of this?
Think the civpol (armed units) use something called a "Hatton Round" for this (amongst other things). Not sure what's in it though.

May be worthwhile seeing if any of our Boys in Blue can answer it.
 
#5
gingwarr said:
Think the civpol (armed units) use something called a "Hatton Round" for this (amongst other things). Not sure what's in it though.

May be worthwhile seeing if any of our Boys in Blue can answer it.
think its big lump of steel into the engine block

edited: wiki:

A breaching round or Hatton cartridge, is a shotgun shell made for combat situations which is specially designed for the purposes of breaching doorways. It is typically fired at a range of 4–6 inches, aimed between the doorknob and door jamb, destroying the locking mechanism.
Breaching rounds are designed to remove the hinges of doors without the risk of ricochet. These rounds comprise 12 gauge, semi-solid frangible slugs weighing 50 grams. The round is made of compressed zinc- or lead powder bound with wax. When fired, the full force of the round is delivered to the target, minimizing the risk of injury to persons behind the door being opened. Hinges are smashed from their fixings and damage is done to the surrounding woodwork. These rounds will penetrate vehicle tires, fire doors clad on both sides with metal plate, cell-type doors, 12 mm thick Makrolon and bulletproof glass from a range of 1.5 meters. Hatton ammunition can only be used in Magnum shotguns with three inch chambers and unchoked barrels.
 
#7
Did you actually go on that page rincewind?

HIGH VELOCITY PLASMA SHOTGUN ROUNDS
These are State of the Art anti armour/anti borg rounds quite capable of killing light tanks or Dragoons. The 18mm shell is composed of a very high density ceramic casing containing six superconductor loops and a seventh smaller loop, all pumped to very high voltages. A central hollow runs the length of the tube, a small funnelled opening at the front and a wide cone opening at the back. The centre of the tube is a spherical chamber lined with a highly refractory alloy. Four Invar rods with sharp barbs run the length of the casing, resting on the superconductor loops with non conductive knife edges.
The Seventh loop is held away from the spherical chambers refactory lining by a plastic rod that passes the length of the central chamber.
When fired, the plastic rod falls away at PB range, arming the slug.
The seventh loop discharges into the chamber lining, superheating it. The air passing down the central hollow is heated and expelled from the wide cone in the base. this acts as a simple ramjet, accelerating the slug at high speed.
If the round strikes a target the sudden shock throws the INVAR rods forward, breaking the six main loops and discharging them into the ceramic body. This is powerful enough to plasmarise the body and electrify the target. If the round reaches a Pre-set distance without impact, the expansion of the body will pull the invar rods back onto the coils and plasmarise the round in mid air. The resulting Bolt of plasma will loose coherency as it travels.
When does this come out?

I can't actually see the Hatton round being used for tyre destruction. I sincerly doubt it's capability to pierce the tyre, as it is a close round. ie. the muzzle is practically against the door when used, at greater ranges I think it would spread out in to a waxy mess and not cause much damage at all.

A bit like a Lava lamp fired from a chally. :D
 
#8
chocolate_frog said:
I can't actually see the Hatton round being used for tyre destruction. I sincerly doubt it's capability to pierce the tyre, as it is a close round. ie. the muzzle is practically against the door when used, at greater ranges I think it would spread out in to a waxy mess and not cause much damage at all.
I think I remember reading about it in "Good Guys Wear Black", about SO19 (as was), so I stand to be corrected on it.


chocolate_frog said:
A bit like a Lava lamp fired from a chally. :D
Sounds like fun.
 
#9
From www.freepatentsonline.com

Title:
High impact-low penetration round

Document Type and Number:
United States Patent 5225628

Link to this Page: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5225628.html

Abstract:
A high impact low penetration round includes a transparent casing and a plurality of deformable pellets fired from the casing as projectiles. The pellets are formed of a lead wax material that flattens and deforms upon contact with a solid object. Contact with a solid object discharges all of the kinetic energy associated with firing the pellet and transfers this energy to the object so that the pellet will not ricochet or penetrate the object. The pellets are shaped to tumble in the air to enhance energy loss and to aid in the detachment and distribution of the pellets. The rounds can be used as shotgun ammunition at close range to provide an effective anti personnel round with a lethality that diminishes rapidly after an effective range of about thirty-five yards.
My bold.

From patents site
 
#11
Didn't Col Tim collins mention somewhere in his book that he shot out the tyres of a bus, using a browning?.

From an engineering perspective- the centrifugal forces generated as the tyre revolves would certainly affect how/if the bullet was to penetrate the tyre and also the ricochet, perhaps the biggest danger would be the bullet rebounding ( due to the psi of said tyre) and possibly striking the firer, or at least giving him a brown trouser moment.
 
#14
BeastAppreciationSociety. said:
Didn't Col Tim collins mention somewhere in his book that he shot out the tyres of a bus, using a browning?.
He did, but I believe the bus was stationary at the time and shot at close range.
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
#15
chocolate_frog said:
I can't actually see the Hatton round being used for tyre destruction. I sincerly doubt it's capability to pierce the tyre, as it is a close round. ie. the muzzle is practically against the door when used, at greater ranges I think it would spread out in to a waxy mess and not cause much damage at all.
The Hatton rd is very good against normal tyres at short range, though it does lose accuracy at distance, but then it's not designed for that.

As other posters have mentioned the engine block is a better target as vehs can drive for quite some distance on flat tyres.
There are large cal AP rds available for shoulder fired wpns, ie 12 g and 10 g, and these can and do stop vehs.
I'll see if I can find the video of a car stopped by the Ithica Mag 10 Roadblocker & post it here.

On the other side of the coin there are a number of products which can be put into tyres to enhance their ability to remain inflated when pierced by rds or Stingers, etc.
In ZA there were a couple of firms that provided this service both to civilians and the Defence Force, in fact the SADF eventually used one that would to permanently seal hits from 20 mil rds !


By the way, Trip_Wire wll be pleased to know that Hatton slugs will turn dogs inside out.
 

chrisg46

LE
Book Reviewer
#17
Thats the easier method i was thinking of, maskers. I mainly ask this out of curiosity, not some deepfelt desire to not shoot my fellow man :)
 
#18
black_maskers said:
why are we talking about shooting tyres out when there is a perfectly good driver to slot?
Too right. If you are justified in firing at the tyres to stop a vehicle (and risking hitting people) chances are you'd be justified to aim for the driver, if not i look forward to reading about your Courts Martial.

Also, if you ever needed to do this I bet the car would end up looking like Swiss cheese anwyay. I doubt you'd be that composed to think 'Errm, let me aim for the back left....' Plus what would the rest of your team be doing when they see you open up I wonder? Making mucho brass I'm guessing and winning the firefight!
 

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