SHOOTING IN COLORADO SPRINGS - 7 DEAD

The car was crushed shortly afterwards otherwise a simple reconstruction would have proved the ‘magic bullet‘ theory to be bolleaux.

It was extensively upgraded & modded then put back into service until the mid-70's.
Plated, hand built mill for 20% more power etc.
Not surprising given it cost $200K back in the day...which equates to circa $1.7 millions today.
It was impounded for a bit for (cough) evidence but was quickly valeted to remove JFK's bits & gore.

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It was extensively upgraded & modded then put back into service until the mid-70's.
Plated, hand built mill for 20% more power etc.
Not surprising given it cost $200K back in the day...which equates to circa $1.7 millions today.
It was impounded for a bit for (cough) evidence but was quickly valeted to remove JFK's bits & gore.

View attachment 572590
I stand corrected… I must have read another conspiracy theory…
 
I appreciate you breaking the process down a bit further on your end it makes a bit more sense. You are correct in the fact that obtaining a CCP does not mean you are going to have the ability of a member of the FBI's HRT with a handgun. But it does mean you have had experience with them and their use. The idea being to promote the ability for as many law abiding citizens to be eligible for said permit if they want it.
Exactly - you want law-abiding citizens to be allowed to carry concealed, and no-one else. Gun control ;)

Unfortunately, "gun control" seems to mean different things to different people in the same debate. To us on this side of the pond, it means "try to keep firearms out of the hands of loonies and criminals", and has involved trade-offs that you would regard as unacceptable (no semi-automatic weapons in military calibres). To many on your side, it means "can we do some background checks, just as for CCW?". Unfortunately, the NRA seems to spend a lot of time trying to imply that "gun control" means total removal! dA gUVmiNt sTEeliNG my GUNZ! rAPisTS! looTerZ! fERaL HOGZ!!! (granted, with slightly fewer exclamation marks, but more emotion).

There has to be a pragmatic solution somewhere between "unrestricted access to AR-15 for the mentally ill!" and "no-one allowed more than a sharpened pencil"...

So I don't quite have the skepticism that many of you folks do, who seem to think these classes are just going to be finger drilled to collect money.

I saw what happened when our reserve infantry battalion spent a week going through the counter-insurgency ranges at Lydd in 1990 or so; lots of shoot/don't shoot scenario training. Obviously being a smug b*stard gravelbelly (and having been shown around Tin City in Sennelager as a pad brat) I just enjoyed myself, but it was worrying to see how many decent soldiers were overwhelmed when confronted with a deliberately-confusing situation - and how many "innocent civilian" targets got a hole in them as a result. Good people, without enough experience, making quick decisions, under only limited pressure - and still getting it badly wrong.

That's trained soldiers, with all of the legality/first aid/tactics stuff handled well in advance, and most of us already having patrolled with live rounds under "White Card" rules in the UK, due to the PIRA threat. Others will be able to talk about the duration of the Northern Ireland workup training for regular units, to effectively turn them into "policemen in a green uniform" (the whole package took months, not days).

So you can understand my skepticism that these classes are a realistic training package. Lip service, at most, that might equip an already-competent few. The real purpose of these courses is to provide minimum-plausibility legal cover for a school district if/when something goes horribly wrong: "Yes, Mrs Smith was scared and confused and put five rounds into your Rebecca as she hammered on the door to be let in to the classroom, but she had done a recognised training course and so you can't sue us for allowing an incompetent enthusiast to carry their gun in the classroom".
 
Exactly - you want law-abiding citizens to be allowed to carry concealed, and no-one else. Gun control ;)

Unfortunately, "gun control" seems to mean different things to different people in the same debate. To us on this side of the pond, it means "try to keep firearms out of the hands of loonies and criminals", and has involved trade-offs that you would regard as unacceptable (no semi-automatic weapons in military calibres). To many on your side, it means "can we do some background checks, just as for CCW?". Unfortunately, the NRA seems to spend a lot of time trying to imply that "gun control" means total removal! dA gUVmiNt sTEeliNG my GUNZ! rAPisTS! looTerZ! fERaL HOGZ!!! (granted, with slightly fewer exclamation marks, but more emotion).

There has to be a pragmatic solution somewhere between "unrestricted access to AR-15 for the mentally ill!" and "no-one allowed more than a sharpened pencil"...



I saw what happened when our reserve infantry battalion spent a week going through the counter-insurgency ranges at Lydd in 1990 or so; lots of shoot/don't shoot scenario training. Obviously being a smug b*stard gravelbelly (and having been shown around Tin City in Sennelager as a pad brat) I just enjoyed myself, but it was worrying to see how many decent soldiers were overwhelmed when confronted with a deliberately-confusing situation - and how many "innocent civilian" targets got a hole in them as a result. Good people, without enough experience, making quick decisions, under only limited pressure - and still getting it badly wrong.

That's trained soldiers, with all of the legality/first aid/tactics stuff handled well in advance, and most of us already having patrolled with live rounds under "White Card" rules in the UK, due to the PIRA threat. Others will be able to talk about the duration of the Northern Ireland workup training for regular units, to effectively turn them into "policemen in a green uniform" (the whole package took months, not days).

So you can understand my skepticism that these classes are a realistic training package. Lip service, at most, that might equip an already-competent few. The real purpose of these courses is to provide minimum-plausibility legal cover for a school district if/when something goes horribly wrong: "Yes, Mrs Smith was scared and confused and put five rounds into your Rebecca as she hammered on the door to be let in to the classroom, but she had done a recognised training course and so you can't sue us for allowing an incompetent enthusiast to carry their gun in the classroom".
Felons don’t exactly rate very highly in American society , neither do drunks etc. So yes the purpose of CCP’s is to provide the citizens the ability to defend themselves from the undesirable elements of society that commit crimes.

LE training with handguns tends to be better then what the conventional military offers. So I am not surprised your folks didn’t do that well.

You seem to be under the impression we are packed like Sardines all over the country. In the rural bits the purpose of these courses is to give a school a chance to preserve the life of their students, so they don’t have to wait 15 minutes for LE to show up. Mass shooters are predators who are looking for minimal resistance, having the ability to offer meaningful resistance and stop the shooter is IMO a worthy goal to pursue.
 

Themanwho

LE
Book Reviewer
Exactly - you want law-abiding citizens to be allowed to carry concealed, and no-one else. Gun control ;)

Unfortunately, "gun control" seems to mean different things to different people in the same debate. To us on this side of the pond, it means "try to keep firearms out of the hands of loonies and criminals", and has involved trade-offs that you would regard as unacceptable (no semi-automatic weapons in military calibres). To many on your side, it means "can we do some background checks, just as for CCW?". Unfortunately, the NRA seems to spend a lot of time trying to imply that "gun control" means total removal! dA gUVmiNt sTEeliNG my GUNZ! rAPisTS! looTerZ! fERaL HOGZ!!! (granted, with slightly fewer exclamation marks, but more emotion).

There has to be a pragmatic solution somewhere between "unrestricted access to AR-15 for the mentally ill!" and "no-one allowed more than a sharpened pencil"...



I saw what happened when our reserve infantry battalion spent a week going through the counter-insurgency ranges at Lydd in 1990 or so; lots of shoot/don't shoot scenario training. Obviously being a smug b*stard gravelbelly (and having been shown around Tin City in Sennelager as a pad brat) I just enjoyed myself, but it was worrying to see how many decent soldiers were overwhelmed when confronted with a deliberately-confusing situation - and how many "innocent civilian" targets got a hole in them as a result. Good people, without enough experience, making quick decisions, under only limited pressure - and still getting it badly wrong.

That's trained soldiers, with all of the legality/first aid/tactics stuff handled well in advance, and most of us already having patrolled with live rounds under "White Card" rules in the UK, due to the PIRA threat. Others will be able to talk about the duration of the Northern Ireland workup training for regular units, to effectively turn them into "policemen in a green uniform" (the whole package took months, not days).

So you can understand my skepticism that these classes are a realistic training package. Lip service, at most, that might equip an already-competent few. The real purpose of these courses is to provide minimum-plausibility legal cover for a school district if/when something goes horribly wrong: "Yes, Mrs Smith was scared and confused and put five rounds into your Rebecca as she hammered on the door to be let in to the classroom, but she had done a recognised training course and so you can't sue us for allowing an incompetent enthusiast to carry their gun in the classroom".
Whilst I agree with some of what you say, I'd take issue with your definition of the British understanding of "Gun Control". As I see it, those advocating increased "gun control" in UK are all about making it harder and harder to obtain and use firearms legally. Politicians, the Police and the media portray any use of a vaguely gun-like stick as the next Michael Ryan; remember the "Snowdrop" campaign after Dunblane? They wanted to ban EVERYTHING IIRC; total removal of all guns would be nirvana to such people.

I was happy to submit to the police checks, club membership, Doctor's letter etc required to obtain a FAC; in fact in some ways I thought the checks were overly formulaic and could be too easily subverted. The inability to own and shoot modern larger calibre (ie: >.22") unmodified handguns or semi automatic rifles as a hobby or sport is an annoyance, but I appreciate from the recent history why the ban is in place. What I do find overly restrictive is the Police insistence that any minor legal infraction will result in the revocation of my FAC. Quite why a speeding ticket should mean that I have to give up my hobby, I am at a loss to explain, unless it is to even put further proscription on the ability to own and fire guns.

I'm a law abiding citizen, and haven't had a speed ticket for years, but in common with 99% of the driving public I sometimes drive faster than the limit. Does being caught committing this minor infraction of the law make me more likely to climb the nearest water tower and start wasting locals?

Anyway I've had my rant; time for a cuppa.

As for your denigration of the teacher "Diehard" training courses, yes you have a point, but I think you've over-egged it. I agree the claim to train up to Law enforcement standard is laughable, but hey, it's advertising. However the 2-3 day course would almost certainly be better than just issuing Ms Simkins from the Science Dept a Glock and telling her to "Live free or Die".

I'm not a great believer in the efficacy of arming school staff, but given the ease of gun availability in the US, relative prevalence of school shootings, budget constraints and the need to do something (bearing in mind that banning guns (a) isn't going to happen and (b) wouldn't remove unregistered guns from circulation), I see the logic of the argument.
 
, having the ability to offer meaningful resistance and stop the shooter is IMO a worthy goal to pursue.
Considering you are not a member of the LE fraternity or have ever deployed on OEF, OIF I’d take your ability to react under extreme stress with a pinch of salt.

You joined the NG, yet didn’t deploy when all those around were, for nearly twenty years, yet you expect us to believe you are some sort of warrior poet just in case?
 
Considering you are not a member of the LE fraternity or have ever deployed on OEF, OIF I’d take your ability to react under extreme stress with a pinch of salt.

You joined the NG, yet didn’t deploy when all those around were, for nearly twenty years, yet you expect us to believe you are some sort of warrior poet just in case
Are you mad bro? You seem a bit miffed about life in general. You are the person that created a thread about how should you kill your self a few months back. Your Twitter account is gone, due to the incident with your regiment and you don’t like the fact that a civ can out shoot you any day of the week. Have you talked to your wife about seeking help?
 
Are you mad bro? You seem a bit miffed about life in general. You are the person that created a thread about how should you kill your self a few months back. Your Twitter account is gone, due to the incident with your regiment and you don’t like the fact that a civ can out shoot you any day of the week. Have you talked to your wife about seeking help?
Twitter account?
Wife?
What incident?
Thread to Kill myself was asking others who have routinely toils me to how i should do it?
Out Shoot me? probably on a one Way range, try a two way range and see how accurate you are, oh yes I forgot your a TEAMS guy.

Considering my primary role is a JTAC I usually end up on the winning side.

Again simple question why not deploy, while guard units deployed to both Iraq and Afgan, many time some of them yet you stayed behind. Medical I presume? Would account for the whiskey.
 
Twitter account?
Wife?
What incident?
Thread to Kill myself was asking others who have routinely toils me to how i should do it?
Out Shoot me? probably on a one Way range, try a two way range and see how accurate you are, oh yes I forgot your a TEAMS guy.

Considering my primary role is a JTAC I usually end up on the winning side.

Again simple question why not deploy, while guard units deployed to both Iraq and Afgan, many time some of them yet you stayed behind. Medical I presume? Would account for the whiskey.
You can’t even write at an 8th grade level Squadron leader.
Yes your spouse the one who was also in the RAF.
You are a recruiter and big up force pro to an unseen level.

You are the one who attempted to try out for the A team and failed in a miserable fashion. I can’t help having been trained to use a handgun to a level that exceeds your training. I also can’t help that I can continue to shoot to my hearts content and keep working on that skill set. Do understand that while yiu were trying to rub one out during fire watch I was already learning marksmanship skills. If you are a bag of ass shooting at paper you are going to be an even bigger bag of ass shooting at a person.

So yes you take me with a grain of salt and I take you with a bag of salt.
 
You can’t even write at an 8th grade level Squadron leader.
Yes your spouse the one who was also in the RAF.
You are a recruiter and big up force pro to an unseen level.

You are the one who attempted to try out for the A team and failed in a miserable fashion. I can’t help having been trained to use a handgun to a level that exceeds your training. I also can’t help that I can continue to shoot to my hearts content and keep working on that skill set. Do understand that while yiu were trying to rub one out during fire watch I was already learning marksmanship skills. If you are a bag of ass shooting at paper you are going to be an even bigger bag of ass shooting at a person.

So yes you take me with a grain of salt and I take you with a bag of salt.
I do not know where you get your information from, my wife was a headteacher who passed away from cancer over 6 years ago, I did pass an arduous course, I failed the arduous course for what your lot call tier 1, no shame in that body broke.

Fire watch? I’m 46, I did my initial training at Cramwell, we had smoke detectors and fire alarms.

Agin all the deflection sheep dog, why no deployments when you had ample opportunity?

You seem really emotional that you’ve not experienced real life.
 
I do not know where you get your information from, my wife was a headteacher who passed away from cancer over 6 years ago, I did pass an arduous course, I failed the arduous course for what your lot call tier 1, no shame in that body broke.

Fire watch? I’m 46, I did my initial training at Cramwell, we had smoke detectors and fire alarms.

Agin all the deflection sheep dog, why no deployments when you had ample opportunity?

You seem really emotional that you’ve not experienced real life.
I get my information from you old bean. I have experienced enough of real life to make the point that you are the type of person that is an example of why people choose to carry concealed firearms. Woof woof.
 
I get my information from you old bean. I have experienced enough of real life to make the point that you are the type of person that is an example of why people choose to carry concealed firearms. Woof woof.
Show me where I’ve posted that my wife was in the RAF, I was a recruiter and I deleted a Twitter account?

Still deflecting about deploying I see, Ok I get it. The bit about me making you happy about being able to a CCW would bar you from owning firearms in this country, cheers dit’s.

Did you flounce because you didnt deploy? Or was it something else, then re joined, sounds like your guard career.
 
What I do find overly restrictive is the Police insistence that any minor legal infraction will result in the revocation of my FAC.
Sounds like your licensing mob are a bit strict (or maybe they're trying to scare you). About fifteen years ago, on a clear, dry Saturday early morning, on an empty M6, Cumbria Police caught me speeding. Having declared it on my renewal, it didn't seem to be a problem.

However, if someone was charged with assault, I wouldn't be surprised if the cops removed their FAC...

As for your denigration of the teacher "Diehard" training courses, yes you have a point, but I think you've over-egged it. I agree the claim to train up to Law enforcement standard is laughable, but hey, it's advertising. However the 2-3 day course would almost certainly be better than just issuing Ms Simkins from the Science Dept a Glock and telling her to "Live free or Die".
Agreed - I think that a five-day course is better than nothing. However, I wonder whether more innocent people will actually die from having an increase in the number of armed teachers, than will actually be saved from an active shooter. It might make people feel better, while not actually improving the outcomes...

As I said earlier, consider the cases of Jemel Roberson or Emantic Bradford
 
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theoriginalphantom

MIA
Book Reviewer
Felons don’t exactly rate very highly in American society , neither do drunks etc. So yes the purpose of CCP’s is to provide the citizens the ability to defend themselves from the undesirable elements of society that commit crimes.

LE training with handguns tends to be better then what the conventional military offers. So I am not surprised your folks didn’t do that well.

You seem to be under the impression we are packed like Sardines all over the country. In the rural bits the purpose of these courses is to give a school a chance to preserve the life of their students, so they don’t have to wait 15 minutes for LE to show up. Mass shooters are predators who are looking for minimal resistance, having the ability to offer meaningful resistance and stop the shooter is IMO a worthy goal to pursue.


Deny the potential shooter access

I believe one of your past presidents is good with walls.
 
Show me where I’ve posted that my wife was in the RAF, I was a recruiter and I deleted a Twitter account?

Still deflecting about deploying I see, Ok I get it. The bit about me making you happy about being able to a CCW would bar you from owning firearms in this country, cheers dit’s.

Did you flounce because you didnt deploy? Or was it something else, then re joined, sounds like your guard career.
You wouldn't post that on this forum. Your wife died from cancer, you had cancer and survived it naturally, you are Jewish with a Nazi screen name who openly discusses killing himself. You would be the type of person with mental health issues that would be the reason why many people in my country do own firearms. As these types of threads discuss issues here, the rules in the UK don't really apply now do they?
 

theoriginalphantom

MIA
Book Reviewer
You wouldn't post that on this forum. Your wife died from cancer, you had cancer and survived it naturally, you are Jewish with a Nazi screen name who openly discusses killing himself. You would be the type of person with mental health issues that would be the reason why many people in my country do own firearms. As these types of threads discuss issues here, the rules in the UK don't really apply now do they?


the truth doesn't really apply to him either
 
You wouldn't post that on this forum. Your wife died from cancer, you had cancer and survived it naturally, you are Jewish with a Nazi screen name who openly discusses killing himself. You would be the type of person with mental health issues that would be the reason why many people in my country do own firearms. As these types of threads discuss issues here, the rules in the UK don't really apply now do they?
Still no deployment excuses? Eh?

You said I deleted a Twitter account because of a RAF issue? You said I was a recruiter? You said my wife was in the RAF?
You said I, said all those on this website, yet back peddle when I ask for proof.

Jonesy you are a 2A nut, majority in America are not, ive Spent considerable time in the USA, enjoyed it, the vast majority of service personnel do, your armed forces are serious professional with similar issues to the U.K., I like them, worked with them, did a couple of tests for shits and giggles with them. Even jumped with them.
You spend to much time worrying about what might happen, watching YouTube channels, instead of living your best life. I wouldn’t swap the Laws here regarding firearms with yours, I don’t walk around hyper vigilant looking to be a hero.

I walk my dogs with little more than causal clothes, good boots, sold jacket and a couple of tennis balls, oh and my phone.

I do t need a EDC, a web belt to hold all that up, just in case, I have situational awareness to avoid, going to areas where I may bump into issues, like walking down the big market on a Friday night with a Sunderland top on.

If some one pulled a knife on me I’d run, call the police and have a beer later on.

Our society has no need to practice at the range for self defence, neither us the majority of European countries.

If the society you live in requires you to be armed for peace of mind , maybe society is broken.

I get it you didn’t join the regulars, didn’t deploy as a guard member, most of the U.K. dont and won’t, however you are a sports shooter nothing more nothing less and that’s ok, it makes you feel safe.

I have two dogs, a brick detached house, good locks, good motion lights.

My biggest worries are Jehovah witnesses knocking on my door.

Have all the guns you want, have all the sports training you want, you have zero real world experience in the employment of firearms, and believe me seeing the results are horrendous, brutal. For me and the majority of those who used them in combat, I’d happily never touch them again for the rest of my life.
 
I can see that Russia wish to emulate (or even compete with) the US when it comes to atrocities with firearms. I base this upon the increasing number of 'guy on the range' videos on YouTube featuring Russkis.
Most of them are of the 'Wossup-you-guys-let's-see-if-I-can-demolish-this-empty-apartment-block-with-this- bad-boy' type of marksmanship video.

The Russians are definitely catching up with the Yanks in the gun nutter supremacy stakes (with the Yarpies following up behind).
 

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