Shamima Begum allowed back to the UK

BarcelonaAnalPark

LE
Book Reviewer
My position is based entirely on trying to protect UK citizens, that’s the point.
Covered above - still not completely convinced, but if someone chooses to “hedge their bets” with two citizenships then it’s a bit more reasonable to unilaterally strip them of one of them.

It doesn’t seem like much of a great way to deal with it from a bilateral point of view though, by playing a sort of reverse game of musical chairs.

I’d certainly not be hugely impressed if we ended up with some other country’s terrorists because that country was quicker in stripping their citizenship than we were.
Abu Hamza was "gifted" to the UK when the Egyptians removed his nationality once he arrived in the UK. It's a party that we're late to.

If Harold Shipman et al had committed their crimes abroad, I would have little sympathy for what the local justice served up for them. The analogy doesn't fit because they committed their crimes in the UK & were processed through the UK courts.

Brits of all races & ages who travelled to Syria received the good news without trial. The reason? They were a threat to Brits & the UK. They joined an organisation which declared war on us & our country. Their supporters carried out attacks against UK civilians. If you have excess sympathy & time on your hands, I urge you to seek out opportunities to ameliorate the lives of Yazidi survivors, many of whom suffered at the hands of Brits & also foreigners, such as Seamuma.
 
She was entitled to it, there’s no evidence that she ever claimed it, exercised it or wanted to have it. To my knowledge she had never been to Bangladesh.

She was born here, raised here and held a British passport and British citizenship. To me that makes her as much our problem as Rose West, Harold Shipman or Reggie Kray.
If she held a British passport, why did she need to steal her sister's passport to travel?
 
She was entitled to it, there’s no evidence that she ever claimed it, exercised it or wanted to have it. To my knowledge she had never been to Bangladesh.

She was born here, raised here and held a British passport and British citizenship. To me that makes her as much our problem as Rose West, Harold Shipman or Reggie Kray.
Cobblers.

If Rose West, Harold Shipman or Reggie Kray committed crimes in a foreign country then they would be tried and judged in that country.

It clearly wouldn't be right to allow them to return here to escape responsibility for their actions.

And it wouldn't be our responsibility to retrieve them either.

What Begum wants (and her lawyers) is to be absolved of all guilt and responsibility, and the government has every right to use all the tools available to it to say 'no, you don't get to walk away'.
 

Mattb

LE
Abu Hamza was "gifted" to the UK when the Egyptians removed his nationality once he arrived in the UK. It's a party that we're late to.
Hamza is a good example of how it works both ways. Ultimately if everyone stopped doing it every country would still end up on average with just as many terrorists (and other criminals) as they would now; whereas if we unilaterally stopped doing it we'd end up with more. Hence my view that it's not an ideal situation, but there's not really an easy answer either.

If Rose West, Harold Shipman or Reggie Kray committed crimes in a foreign country then they would be tried and judged in that country.
And once released (assuming it wasn't a whole life or death sentence), they'd be deported back here and be our problem to deal with.
I have zero issues if Syria wants to try her for crimes committed there.
If she held a British passport, why did she need to steal her sister's passport to travel?
Fair one - in that case scratch "British passport holder" from the list. Still born here and a British citizen and resident prior to going to Syria.
 
Think you missed my point there (probably deliberately).

That she can be stripped of her citizenship for the above is down to circumstances completely out of her control, that effectively make her a second-class citizen based purely on her ancestry.

No. What she is, is a serious, and ongoing security risk. Allowing her to return poses a significant or serious threat to national security. And so you know, the circumstances she finds herself in, are her own work.

Edit: And while I'm on the subject, how would you feel about the victims of acts committed by her, or anyone she'd provided training for after she returned?
 
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Isn't it rather the opposite anyway, her race wouldn't be considered an issue if she was white

She's had a lot more press attention calling for her return than Jack Letts

So the racism is the pro Begum camp calling for her return
Don't forget the sexism, too...
 
M Great Uncle still lies in Changi because he had the misfortune to surrender to the wrong people.
All the bodies of British and Commonwealth servicemen killed in the battle of Singapore or who died as POW's on the island were reburied in Kranji Commonwealth war cemetery in the North of the island near where the Japanese landed.
 

syrup

LE
If she held a British passport, why did she need to steal her sister's passport to travel?


Because she knew a 15 year old would be challenged in the airport trying to travel with another couple of teenagers?
Makes you wonder how she paid or who paid for the tickets to Turkey.

It was properly planned she didn't just wake up one day in the Caliphate
 

Walter_Ego

Old-Salt
Because she knew a 15 year old would be challenged in the airport trying to travel with another couple of teenagers?
Makes you wonder how she paid or who paid for the tickets to Turkey.

It was properly planned she didn't just wake up one day in the Caliphate
Maybe not her absent father , but certainly I'd look at the father of one of the other girls for having some sort of involvement.
The one who spontaneously turned up at a demonstration at the US Embassy , burned a US flag ,all on his own and without any help or outside influence. The lying pig
 

BarcelonaAnalPark

LE
Book Reviewer
Hamza is a good example of how it works both ways. Ultimately if everyone stopped doing it every country would still end up on average with just as many terrorists (and other criminals) as they would now; whereas if we unilaterally stopped doing it we'd end up with more. Hence my view that it's not an ideal situation, but there's not really an easy answer either.


And once released (assuming it wasn't a whole life or death sentence), they'd be deported back here and be our problem to deal with.
I have zero issues if Syria wants to try her for crimes committed there.

Fair one - in that case scratch "British passport holder" from the list. Still born here and a British citizen and resident prior to going to Syria.
Sadly, "why can't we all just get along & play nice" just isn't a viable foreign or domestic policy. The UK justice system isn't set up for every scenario in the world & there has to be different tools available to reach the ultimate goal of maintaining security.

Other Brits in Syria, of all races, got droned without the hint of a trial. Seamuma gets off likely in that regard.
 
She was entitled to it, there’s no evidence that she ever claimed it, exercised it or wanted to have it. To my knowledge she had never been to Bangladesh.
Again, as you are hard of thinking, it is not something she has to "claim". It is something she has, same as she did not have to claim UK citizenship.
 

BuggerAll

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
One thing I’m not happy with is that she was stripped of her citizenship on the grounds of security but we are where we are with the way the law stands at the moment.

I would like to see new laws that make it quite explicit that if you take up arms abroad or join our enemies, let’s call it ‘treason’ then you will loose citizenship if you have another and that should you return to the UK it will be a life sentence.

It would not be that difficult to convict somebody like Begum of modern treason.

Life sentence doesn’t mean they would necessarily be in prison for life but release in licence comes with conditions.
 

Mattb

LE
It would not be that difficult to convict somebody like Begum of modern treason.

Life sentence doesn’t mean they would necessarily be in prison for life but release in licence comes with conditions.
I have no issue with that.
Other Brits in Syria, of all races, got droned without the hint of a trial. Seamuma gets off likely in that regard.
I don't have a particular issue with that either.
Again, as you are hard of thinking, it is not something she has to "claim". It is something she has, same as she did not have to claim UK citizenship.
Bangladesh disagrees with you.

 

TamH70

MIA
I have no issue with that.

I don't have a particular issue with that either.

Bangladesh disagrees with you.


Bangladesh's air defences aren't good enough for the bitch not to be dropped on them from a great height using HALO and automatic parachute opening. With supplementary oxygen, if one is feeling generous...
 
I have no issue with that.

I don't have a particular issue with that either.

Bangladesh disagrees with you.


Nobody wants her except Guardian readers it seems, perhaps she should get fundraising from them with an OnlyJihadiFans account relying on their colonial guilt trip
 

jmb3296

War Hero
I have no issue with that.

I don't have a particular issue with that either.

Bangladesh disagrees with you.


i agree with you on all your three points, however in relation to the third point it is worth noting that it doesn’t matter if Bangladesh won’t let her in, because she is a Bangladeshi citizen she is not stateless once Britain removed citizenship.

the challenge to Britain removing citizenship is that we cannot make people stateless due to legal convention.
we can remove British citizenship if they have dual nationality, hence Letts and Begum are no longer British citizens.

Letts is now receiving consular assistance from Canada. Bangladesh can provide such assistance to Begum, or not, as much their legal system and laws provide for.
if Bangladesh decides they don’t wish caught on the horns of this dilemma in the future they can always amend their constitution to remove the nationality provision Begum has provided for.

in truth Begum isn’t going to Bangladesh, and I hope she doesn’t come here, the Dutch ( her husbands nation) don’t want her and won’t let her in.

she has displayed no loyalty to any country other than IS for whom she was an enthusiastic poster child and apparent enforcer, so why should any country bother their arse for her.

she renounced the UK and at the very minimum provided succour and support for those who would do us harm ( as did Letts)

the pair can stay in the land of their crimes.
 

BuggerAll

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
i agree with you on all your three points, however in relation to the third point it is worth noting that it doesn’t matter if Bangladesh won’t let her in, because she is a Bangladeshi citizen she is not stateless once Britain removed citizenship.

the challenge to Britain removing citizenship is that we cannot make people stateless due to legal convention.
we can remove British citizenship if they have dual nationality, hence Letts and Begum are no longer British citizens.

Letts is now receiving consular assistance from Canada. Bangladesh can provide such assistance to Begum, or not, as much their legal system and laws provide for.
if Bangladesh decides they don’t wish caught on the horns of this dilemma in the future they can always amend their constitution to remove the nationality provision Begum has provided for.

in truth Begum isn’t going to Bangladesh, and I hope she doesn’t come here, the Dutch ( her husbands nation) don’t want her and won’t let her in.

she has displayed no loyalty to any country other than IS for whom she was an enthusiastic poster child and apparent enforcer, so why should any country bother their arse for her.

she renounced the UK and at the very minimum provided succour and support for those who would do us harm ( as did Letts)

the pair can stay in the land of their crimes.

Reintroducing the death penalty for treason, would make the return of UK born terrorists less of an issue
 

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