Shamima Begum allowed back to the UK

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Again - gently, because I have said it before but some people here are clearly hard of thinking:

Some of the same newspapers/media outlets and politicians that are complaining about her 'unfair' treatment are the same ones that get outraged over people committing crimes here and then absconding back whence they came before the courts catch up with them.

Before any debate over her citizenship, there's this: she was a member of a criminal, genocidal organisation, a terrorist organisation which committed despicable acts of savagery on a massive scale and in which she was by all accounts complicit and an enthusiastic enforcer.

Before she comes back here, and judging by our own sense of justice, she deserves to face the courts in the country where she committed those offences.

If that takes a month, a year, 10 years, or 20, it matters not. She shouldn't be free to go anywhere until her culpability for acts in support of that group is judged before a court of law. She is subject to the law of the land in which the offences were committed - where she is now, in other words.

Inhumane? Tell that to the Yadizi.

Inhumane? She hasn't apologised or expressed regret for what she has done. Her only regret is for the situation she finds herself in. A skip-full of the severed heads of kaffirs is just one of those things... hey ho.

Inhumane? No. It really isn't.
 
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The camps were described as places of torture amd inhumanity and we have a duty of humanity to rescue her.

Wasn't that mainly due to the ISIS fanbois in the camps going full ISIS until they suddenly decided they wanted to return to their home country and then suddenly began courting press attention and producing fake babies to gain some sympathy and put some distant between them and their islamo fascist beliefs

ISIS members tried to control the camps from within, so they weren't just places of torture and inhumanity, they were ISIS places of torture and humanity (This time without the Beatles...)
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
I agree the camps are appalling places. Nobody should be held in those conditions. I would like to see the international community doing something about it. I’d like to see the immensely rich countries in that part of the world do something about it. What I don’t accept is that Begum has any right to jump the queue. There are plenty of real victims in those dreadful camps who are not the agents of their own misfortune and should come a long way in front of her.
So the countries in the same region, who ostensibly share the same religion as her, or sects thereof, treat the camps with disdain.

Wealthy countries in the same region, countries in which there are people worth near-untold personal fortunes, treat the camps with disdain.

Why is that?

Moreover, why is it, or should it be, our responsibility to see those camps financed or run better?

No-one innocent should be held in those conditions. Many innocents were held in camps far worse, and were literally pealed and ripped apart, by ISIS. The objective was so see how long unspeakable agonies could be prolonged for sheer sport.

The people who did those things, or the people who supported them, are now in those camps.

Genuine question, and if you can provide an answer I'll agree with you, which 'real victims'?
 

Grownup_Rafbrat

LE
Book Reviewer
That she is entitled to Bangladeshi citizenship is beyond her control.

You're just deliberately pretending not to understand my point.
And you're just deliberately being contrary. Yes you are.
Yes you are.
Yes you are.

You have no logic, no understanding of the law, you ignore the things she has done and said, and try to make this about race. You are Meghan Markle and I claim my £5.
 

BuggerAll

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
So the countries in the same region, who ostensibly share the same religion as her, or sects thereof, treat the camps with disdain.

Wealthy countries in the same region, countries in which there are people worth near-untold personal fortunes, treat the camps with disdain.

Why is that?

Moreover, why is it, or should it be, our responsibility to see those camps financed or run better?

No-one innocent should be held in those conditions. Many innocents were held in camps far worse, and were literally pealed and ripped apart, by ISIS. The objective was so see how long unspeakable agonies could be prolonged for sheer sport.

The people who did those things, or the people who supported them, are now in those camps.

Genuine question, and if you can provide an answer I'll agree with you, which 'real victims'?
Anyone who had no choice. The women (and men) who were kidnapped and forced into it. Young people who’s families forced them into it.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Anyone who had no choice. The women (and men) who were kidnapped and forced into it. Young people who’s families forced them into it.
Yes, but evidence that. We're being given the impression by those with a vested interest that the fragrant lady who's the subject of this thread had no choice.
 

BuggerAll

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Yes, but evidence that. We're being given the impression by those with a vested interest that the fragrant lady who's the subject of this thread had no choice.
She did but I suspect that a lot of people who got caught up in Daesh’s web had little or no choice.
 

BuggerAll

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
so in your analogy, Shamima is Yoko
Calling her ‘Shamima’ is a trick her supporters use. Usually said with a slightly sickly emotionally intelligent inflection. We shouldn’t be on first name term with terrorists and their supporters. We don’t talk about Gerry or Jeremy or Martin; it’s Adams, Corbyn and McGuinness.
 

TamH70

MIA
I watched a load of wibblers on the Big Question droning on about ‘Shamima’.

Apparently it’s our fault as a society for letting her down. It’s men’s fault that she was groomed by men.

It’s the governments fault because the police and the security services failed to stop her - Said without a hint of irony. Can you imagine the community outrage if the police and security services were found harassing a 15 year old girl.

The camps were described as places of torture amd inhumanity and we have a duty of humanity to rescue her.

I agree the camps are appalling places. Nobody should be held in those conditions. I would like to see the international community doing something about it. I’d like to see the immensely rich countries in that part of the world do something about it. What I don’t accept is that Begum has any right to jump the queue. There are plenty of real victims in those dreadful camps who are not the agents of their own misfortune and should come a long way in front of her.

How much in "humanitarian aid" bribes to the owners of that refugee camp would it take to temporarily clear an area of about, say, a couple of km's radius away from the centre of La Femme Begum's tent, seal her up in it with about a km of really nasty razor-wire, and drop a couple of JDAMs on the odious bitch?

And then bulldoze the remnants flat with a couple of Israeli-style Caterpillar thingies?

Whatever the sum would be, it'd be cheap considering the alternative, and an excellent example of "pour encourager Les Autres".

Asking on behalf of "the terminally bored with this Begum cow and her followers and fellow travellers" branch from Paisley.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
She did but I suspect that a lot of people who got caught up in Daesh’s web had little or no choice.
Yes, but again - evidence it.

Frankly, the choice between getting your head lopped off or joining up is no choice.

I think Cameron bottled it. He was so keen to get us out of Blair's foreign adventures that he pulled the plug at precisely the point that he should have committed more. Syria was a cluster in part because of his timidity.

At the same time, there are a lot of people in those camps who are now shamming innocence and who are anything but. Begum fits that description fully. She's not the only one.
 
It's done and dusted but we need to keep this in the public eye... this is how terrorism or supporting terrorism is rewarded.

They are plenty banging on about it on social media like FB in either case.
 

BuggerAll

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Yes, but again - evidence it.

Frankly, the choice between getting your head lopped off or joining up is no choice.

I think Cameron bottled it. He was so keen to get us out of Blair's foreign adventures that he pulled the plug at precisely the point that he should have committed more. Syria was a cluster in part because of his timidity.

At the same time, there are a lot of people in those camps who are now shamming innocence and who are anything but. Begum fits that description fully. She's not the only one.
I don’t need to evidence it. We’re discussing principle. There are undoubtedly victims and they should be identified and helped. Begum is not a victim. She is at the back of the queue as far as help is concerned. She should be treated humanly. She is as entitled to international humanitarian law as anyone else. We should be seeking that for all prisoners. That’s all she is entitled to. She should be tried for her crimes but it’s nothing to do with us.
 
Yes, but evidence that. We're being given the impression by those with a vested interest that the fragrant lady who's the subject of this thread had no choice.
I'd bet quite a large sum of money, that those who are campaigning the loudest for the return of this fetid wretch wouldn't have her living within 50 miles of their humble abodes. They certainly wouldn't offer up one of their many spare rooms to house the skid mark on the sheets of life that she is
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
I don’t need to evidence it. We’re discussing principle. There are undoubtedly victims and they should be identified and helped. Begum is not a victim. She is at the back of the queue as far as help is concerned. She should be treated humanly. She is as entitled to international humanitarian law as anyone else. We should be seeking that for all prisoners. That’s all she is entitled to. She should be tried for her crimes but it’s nothing to do with us.
So, you can make a statement and not evidence it? Why not?

Okay: everyone in the camp is really an animatronic puppet. None of them are real. They only get switched on when the cameras turn up.

No, I don't need to evidence that.
 

Mattb

LE
it’s citizens and it’s interests are not important.
My position is based entirely on trying to protect UK citizens, that’s the point.
Mattb, how do you square the Jack Letts circle when it comes to losing citizenship for joining IS?
Covered above - still not completely convinced, but if someone chooses to “hedge their bets” with two citizenships then it’s a bit more reasonable to unilaterally strip them of one of them.

It doesn’t seem like much of a great way to deal with it from a bilateral point of view though, by playing a sort of reverse game of musical chairs.

I’d certainly not be hugely impressed if we ended up with some other country’s terrorists because that country was quicker in stripping their citizenship than we were.
 

BuggerAll

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
My position is based entirely on trying to protect UK citizens, that’s the point.
Covered above - still not completely convinced, but if someone chooses to “hedge their bets” with two citizenships then it’s a bit more reasonable to unilaterally strip them of one of them.

It doesn’t seem like much of a great way to deal with it from a bilateral point of view though, by playing a sort of reverse game of musical chairs.

I’d certainly not be hugely impressed if we ended up with some other country’s terrorists because that country was quicker in stripping their citizenship than we were.
Begum had British and Bangladeshi citizenship. Why are you so desperate that she should be our problem not theirs.

I agree that it’s bad luck on Bangladesh. They don’t deserve her but neither do we. Then again I very much doubt it’s a problem they will ever actually have to deal with so no real problem for them.
 
She ca
Begum had British and Bangladeshi citizenship. Why are you so desperate that she should be our problem not theirs.

I agree that it’s bad luck on Bangladesh. They don’t deserve her but neither do we. Then again I very much doubt it’s a problem they will ever actually have to deal with so no real problem for them.
Don't knock Bangladesh, have you seen it's beaches

maxresdefault-68.jpg
 

Mattb

LE
Begum had British and Bangladeshi citizenship. Why are you so desperate that she should be our problem not theirs.

I agree that it’s bad luck on Bangladesh. They don’t deserve her but neither do we. Then again I very much doubt it’s a problem they will ever actually have to deal with so no real problem for them.
She was entitled to it, there’s no evidence that she ever claimed it, exercised it or wanted to have it. To my knowledge she had never been to Bangladesh.

She was born here, raised here and held a British passport and British citizenship. To me that makes her as much our problem as Rose West, Harold Shipman or Reggie Kray.
 

Tyk

LE
She was entitled to it, there’s no evidence that she ever claimed it, exercised it or wanted to have it. To my knowledge she had never been to Bangladesh.

She was born here, raised here and held a British passport and British citizenship. To me that makes her as much our problem as Rose West, Harold Shipman or Reggie Kray.

That's HER problem. Begum abrogated her British citizenship by her deliberate actions of joining an enemy of the UK and actively engaging in the atrocities of that enemy.
Not our problem, in the past the extent of our involvement if she'd been located by the British authorities would have been a rope or maybe some 303.
Begum is due and deserves no sympathy whatsoever. With rights come responsibilities, she abandoned any rights she had by deliberately joining an enemy that would cheerfully see morons like you strung up.
 

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