Sexual Harrasment

BandB

Swinger
The last police statistic I saw was that 10% of all rape is male on male.

The only way a woman can rape another is to assist a man to do it.  Otherwise, as stated above, it's sexual assault.
 

sittingstress

Old-Salt
My place or work requires us to be up to speed on cross-gender issues and our research has produced the following fact:

From the Met Police regarding the year 00-01 there were approximately the same number of M/M rapes within their area as M/F but the stigma involved in the M/M version precludes the majority of men reporting it.

It has also been found that when in "captivity" (this could mean held hostage or just dragged down an alley) the majority of women expect to be raped whereas men expect to be beaten up.  As women expect rape they genearlly deal with the aftermath a lot better than their male counterparts.

Before I get my throat ripped out by anybody for being a sexist, I am most definately not.  This issue of expectation has been bourne out many many times and is now regarded as incontrovertible fact.

Food for thought; we all have our own ideas about how we would deal with a colleague who has been raped (M/F) which is a terrible crime and ordeal but what if the lady being raped by a man was a lesbian?  What issues do you think that causes in her mind and how would we modify our attitudes to take into her account her sexuality, if at all?

There are many different scenarios that we have had to look at and sometimes the results are frightening.  Admittedly we deal mainly with PW/hostage scenarios but the underlying trends are all bourne out in other sceanrios too.

Scarey stuff.

Per Ardua
 
E

ex-dvr

Guest
As some people who read my posts know i have a problem with the issue of "FACT". when it comes to research and people get 10%  or 95% or whatever what % of what makes an answer.
I do work with substance misusers and all the statutory agencies want figures and %. so I ask our case workers how many people have you had contact this week with who use and admit class A drugs and are recorded stating they do? answers from say 3 workers are
1. 3
2. 6
3. 0

out of a total of 18 people seen that week. yet we know that another (4 nearly 25% more)people are using class A drugs what is the figure published?
50% ish or do we say the higher figure because we know but it is not factually reported as far as other agencies are concerned..

I think the same applies to any case of sexual assault
( in a roundabout way). when % are shown i think the total numbers must be used to get a true number, or it could be non factual if they do not know what numbers are not being reported!!
 

sittingstress

Old-Salt
My mistake for not including the base figure the Met worked from.

The number you require is 4200.

This figure is based on "reported" rapes and "known" rapes.  Known rapes are condidered to be rapes that for whatever reason have not been officially reported but are known to have occurred by the various agencies that might have got involved ie. social services etc.

Good thread this.  I do like decent discussion.

Per Ardua
 

LadyBird

Swinger
So what you are saying Sittingstress, is that it's worse for men to be raped than for women?? Because women deal with it better than men?

I strongly disagree with you - women deal with a lot of things beter than men, specially when it comes to mental stress and the like. That doesn't mean that it hurts less or is experienced as less humiliating.

For men I do believe that it adds strongly to the humiliation that they are being penetrated (the most unmanly thing - look at the reactions to male homosexuality on this site) - but on the other hand women face the misogyni  of our culture as a reminder of the incident every day for the rest of thir lives.

So I definitrly do not think it's fair to claim that it's worse for men....

As for a lesbian experiencing rape - I do not tink I would at all take that into consideration when treating her. Rape/sexual violence isn't about sexuality but about power, sex is merely a weapon.
 

Mr Happy

LE
Moderator
I don't think Sittingstress was saying that is what he thought, he was quoting from research on the subject.  If you disagree with the research fair enough but don't tear him a new arrse hole for reporting in.

On the subject of R being about power not sex I find this hard to understand but as I am completely inexperienced on this subject and so will just say "if you say so" but I always thought that R was about trying to find sexual release and not about humiliating some unfortunate other.  I have suspicions about the origins of this "power" POV.

Mr H (but not really on this subject)
 
Ladybird, I don't believe SS was trying to make the point that it's worse for a man - just that they find it even harder to cope with.

I must admit to being quite surprised at the prevalence of M on M rapes. It does lend credibility to the notion that it's about power Mr H. There would have to be an unbelievably high number of rapists amongst the male homosexual community to be producing that sort of stat. Therefore most of those rapists are probably 'straight' - in which case, they won't be carrying out this crime for sexual release, would they?

Also, the 'power' theory has been developed through research carried out amongst rapists.

I'm not sure about gay womens' repsonse - not being a gay woman I could only conjecture.
 

LadyBird

Swinger
I don't think Sittingstress was saying that is what he thought, he was quoting from research on the subject.  If you disagree with the research fair enough but don't tear him a new arrse hole for reporting in.
I wouldn't dream of doing that.

I merely stated that I disagreed and why. If he was saying that women cope with it better than men we quite agree.

As for rape being about sexual release Prodigal has a good point. Also sexual release can be obtained by other - not so violent - means. Which is the way most men do it when they haven't got a willing partner about. ....I think... ::)
 

Iraqi_DMI

Old-Salt
Prodigal

In theory I support your solution, however I could never condone support for the corrupt American reigeme.

It's Haagen Dagz that has made me such a FAT B45T4RD!!
;)
 

sittingstress

Old-Salt
Firstly, Ladybird under NO circumsatnces do I say it is worse for men to be raped than women. The crime itself is abhorrent irrespective of it's nature. The fact of the matter though is that women EXPECT to be raped in certain situations whereas men do not.

Secondly, the point about a lesbian being raped by a male and the way she is treated post rape by her peers is valid. To say you would not treat her any differently is not the best way forward. It has been proven that consideration must be given to her feelings regarding the fact that she has not only been raped but been raped in an "unnatural" manner owing to her sexuality. This calls for different set of considerations to be bought into play.

Mr Happy; many people have the same beliefs as you that rape is about sexual release, indeed that is a very natural thought given the act itself. However, the massive majority of male rapes that occur are committed by heterosexuals. Rape is used to dominate and produce fear. The perpetrators do not regard themselves as having committed a homosexual act. Many gangsters use male rape as a means of punishment. There are many examples from a multitude of cultures that have used rape as a demonstration of power.

No doubt you lot have probably gathered that cross-gender issues are a bit of a "thing" where I work!

Try this for thought: if you are part of a close knit team at work and you are all held hostage for whatever reason. How would you react to being made to watch the female member of your team be raped by a captor? How would she feel returning to the group's presence? How would you react to her?

The answers are many and all depend on individual reactions. The dynamics and possible reperussions are huge. All we can do is think about it and discuss it. If we do then it makes my job one hell of a lot easier.

Per Ardua
 
'Stress
Your job would be even easier if all units had a CACI, which used to be mandated in ATDs.

The only resolution to male or female rape is for fellow captives or members of the victim's unit to give the individual every grain of support they can muster.  

On return families must also be brought into the equation, although each individual case will be different.  It would be nice to know if defence welfare or medical services had been brought into the equation.

Perhaps there is scope for a survive with honour thread??  I havn't seen the distance learning CD yet.
 

sittingstress

Old-Salt
Sub the CACI course was binned a couple of years ago as it was impossible to keep them updated and they were not qualified to give the hostage brief anyway. It is a requirement that only us on the Coy can give it as the information is constantly updated.

Survive with honour thread sounds like it has some scope we just have to be wary of classification that is all.

Agree with what you say about support though.

Per Ardua
 
The waters around us are getting very dark and cold as we descend into this thread.........interesting discussion though.

I wonder how the male members of that group taken hostage in the scenario you described would react? Any thoughts out there? Are there any of you who still think that a woman is 'asking for it' if she wears make up and a short skirt? I knew a policeman who believed that rape just didn't exist because he believed all victims were guilty of 'contributory negligence' in some way. Mind you, he did keep a large collection of pornographic pictures taken of his numerous conquests in an album and still lived with his parents at 28................( he went out with my mate at college - silly girl). AND before anyone thinks I'm anti-police, I'm not!!! He was, without doubt, an exception!!

You know who I really feel for? The partners/husbands of women (and men of course) who have been raped. I knew one and he was (still is) a wonderful, sensitive and endlessly kind man, and I remember the pain he went through trying to come to terms with it, and provide support etc.

I remember reading somewhere (sorry Mr H, probably another magazine!!) of research done on male students in the States ,wehere they claimed a very large % of them would commit rape if they knew they would get away with it.
 

LadyBird

Swinger
This discussion is really getting quite gloomy.... :(

Firstly, Ladybird under NO circumsatnces do I say it is worse for men to be raped than women. The crime itself is abhorrent irrespective of it's nature. The fact of the matter though is that women EXPECT to be raped in certain situations whereas men do not.
But what excactly do you mean then? I mean what does that piece of informatin tell us?

As for lesbians experiencing rapes - if a woman is **** - raped, does that also require a different therapeutic approach? That is also a violation of her normal sexuality (isn't it??  :eek:).....Or if a homosexual man gets raped then what?

I basically see rape as a demonstration of power, a way of generating fear and terrorising not only the individual, but an entire group.

Rape agains women has an enormous influence on all womens everyday life, their freedom, their self esteem. Sexual violence is a mean by which women are kept in control.

The same goes for male rape - in these cases the group that are kept under control is a lot more limited, it's not the aim to control men as such. rather men of/under a certain rank/ position in an organisation.

Rape used as torture both against the rapevictim and her/ his allies is generally known and used isn't it??

Unfortunately I don't understand very many off your abbreviations - CACI, ATD....???

And...I'm not tearing any a**eholes here, just trying to understand....
 

sittingstress

Old-Salt
LB,

The piece of information "women expect to be raped" tells us exactly that. If you ask a load of ladies to list the things that they think may happen to them in captivity (see definition above) then rape is quite high on that list. Ask the same amount of men and rape features much lower, if at all, on the list.

I am not qualified to answer your question about therapeutic approaches. I am inivolved with the behaviour of victim and peers immediately after the attack. Are there any textbook correct answers at all? I think not. However, with the integration of women into military teams much more common now then it is best for us all to seriously consider how we might behave as victims or peers. Discussion is the way forward to raise the general awareness of this subject.

I disagree with your point that sexual violence is used to control ALL women. That is a sweeping generalisation which to some people may sound particularly anti-man in it's sentiment.

Rape as torture is an interesting concept because in the strict sense the act alone is not regarded as torture yet when combined with other events it is. The list is long and unpleasant so I won't elaborate any further.

I want to steer the general military populus away from the popular misconception that rape is mainly used against women. However I am not in the business of saying that blokes are worse off. The overall knowledge and attitude towards all rapes needs to be improved across the board especially in the military.

I apologise for the abbreviations:

CACI=Conduct After Capture Instructor
ATDs= The annual training that is required by the army ie. weapon training, first aid etc
CCS=Common Core Skills which is the RAF equivalent to ATDs
 

LadyBird

Swinger
I want to steer the general military populus away from the popular misconception that rape is mainly used against women. However I am not in the business of saying that blokes are worse off. The overall knowledge and attitude towards all rapes needs to be improved across the board especially in the military.
Agreed - and it's going the right way.

I disagree with your point that sexual violence is used to control ALL women. That is a sweeping generalisation which to some people may sound particularly anti-man in it's sentiment.
I know it may sound so, this is not my intention. Only very few men are actual rapists, some more are potential rapists, but that does not mean that I don't like men or anything even remotely close to that. Rape is a cultural phenomenon as you also pointed out earlier. What I stated is closely connected with what you say here:

The piece of information "women expect to be raped" tells us exactly that. If you ask a load of ladies to list the things that they think may happen to them in captivity (see definition above) then rape is quite high on that list. Ask the same amount of men and rape features much lower, if at all, on the list.
...rape ranks very high on all womens "fearlist" as such, thus the control. The fear of sexual assault is ofcourse very determining for the behaviour of the individual. The number of actual rapes is irrelevant, it's the fact that we are all at risk that matters. And that's the only significance I can see in your stated fact that women expect to be raped: Because they do, the control works.

As for Rape in torture situations - I do believe the victim see it as torture no matter the circumstances. I must admit I don't know the legal implications in this..??
It is very, very unpleasant, but still as with the issue as such, it needs to be brought out in open.
 

Exmarine

War Hero
Rape is not about sex; it is about violence and domination.

I had an ex recruit raped in Amsterdam by men (homosexuals I presume.)

I knew about this when I met him after 5 years, I never mentioned it.

Christ what do you say.

If he had been beaten up it would have been easy.

It’s bad but in this case some things are best left unsaid.

It’s a nasty business regardless of gender and why I belong to the hang em high club on this issue.

Selfish perverted sick bastards

Chris
 

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