Serious Question

Discussion in 'Army Pay, Claims & JPA' started by Oggy69, Jan 8, 2004.

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. Hi all, my Regiment has just had a "JNCO Study day" in which they did a bit of Phys, some team building stuff and a Q and A session by the RSM and CO.

    Everything was going well until the CO stood up and started banging on about fitness and what was expected of JNCO's etc, etc. He then said that while he was CO, he refuses to promote anyone that is medically downgraded/medically unfit. This was then backed up by a letter from the RSM to all the sub units in which he spells out that anyone that can't do PT is to be given sh1t jobs until they are mended.

    Our non-Infantry Regiment is considered fairly fit, we do PT 4 times a week so injuries do occur and their is hardly any time for recovery.

    I understand that It's the CO's and RSM's trainset, but my question is, do they have the legal right to stop a soldiers career dead because he is medically downgraded, or is this something that MCM have to deal with all the time?

    The reason I'm asking is that many NCO's are considering legal action because they believe that the employer is being discriminatory towards what is effectively someone with a temporary/permanent disability

    Anyone like to have a crack at answering?
  2. Soldier_Why

    Soldier_Why LE Moderator

    I'm inclined to think that it was probably just 'scare tactics' by the CO to get the lazy part of the sick, lame and lazy motivated. We all know who they are - the ones who conveniently pop to the Med Cen just prior to Ex/Op/COs Run etc.

    I know that in most (all?) non-Inf units now (and possibly across the board) that discrimination on account of medical grading is not condoned. Whether you get the reports needed for promotion whilst not participating in the physical aspect is of course another matter.

    Anyone who has a legitimate reason for being on a 'sick-chit' shouldn't worry, although not knowing your CO or unit I would be disposed to start getting all my redress evidence ready now!
  3. mmmmmmmm I would be interested in this one, being retired and obviously so much has changed in the last few years, not that it ever came up in my case but I was always under the impression you could not be promoted to the next subsantive rank while or if medicaly downgraded.
  4. Soldier_Why

    Soldier_Why LE Moderator

    That was the case until very recently but the lefty tree-huggers won that one. :? Policy change was about 12 - 18 months ago I think.

    On a quick note: even before the policy change it was still possible to get promoted if you were P3 LE. This was certainly the case in the R Signals and the AGC and I even witnessed an Inf Cpl (storeman but Inf just the same) promoted to Sgt who was P3 - didn't half cause a stink with the Cpls in the Rifle Coys I can tell you!
  5. I bet it did, never happened in my Regt, think there would have been a riot :lol:
  6. Plenty of people have been promoted in our Corps even when downgraded. It appears that our MCM DIV has got one thing correct in recognising JNCO's with talent

    Problem is, the CO and RSM love their running and whether you're a good NCO or just one of those who shouts a bit at confidential time, so long as you can run a sub 9.30 BPFA, then you're a good lad.

    My grievance is that the people who keep going sick everytime a tab looms or run in at the 11 min mark on BPFA's at 17 years old should be sorted out, not people on the long term sick

    Due to a few comments made by the CO he has lowered the morale state to the square root of zero for many NCO's in our Regiment. What incentive have you got for carrying on if you're downgraded with a twisted back after a log run instigated by the very same CO?
  7. Fortunately(?) your CO cannot stop your promotion if you're downgraded or a bit of a blooter. If you (hypothetically, I don't mean you're a pie-eating bloooter) really do struggle on BPFA then comments could be made in your pen picture and your tick in the Physial Fitness box on page 2 of your 2048 would be well over to the left, but if your corps/regt is full of unfit blooters at your rank then those are the people you'll be judged against by the promotion board. Do your promotions come from MCM DIv? If so then worry about the pen picture in your CR not what the CO says.
  8. Maj B is right. The CO quite rightly is stamping his mark and laying down his priorities. If a sldr cannot pass his mandatory fitness tests then he is in front of the MO - to see if there is a medical problem. If there is not - fine - just get fit. If eventually downgraded then it depends to what extent a sldr is down graded. It could perhaps be just UK service only. If this impinges on his employment, then it could affect his promotion prospects.

    If the CO is unhappy with your fitness when he does bit in the CR, then he should make comments and marks accordingly. If he does not give a recommendation for promotion he shoud say why not. If he does not, then you must ask him why when you receive your CR.

    If you cannot do the mandatory fitness tests and there is not a medical problem - you are unlikely to get a recommendation for promotion - and the CO is quite within his rights to say this. After all we cannot unfit NCOs leading fit sldrs.

    Hope this helps.
  9. If a soldier has been downgraded, and presumeably given a course of physio or a some sort of time scale of their medical problem, how does their reporting officer report their fitness on a confidential? Shouldnt their be another box for, perhaps "unable to comment at this time" against the physical stamina criteria?

    I ask because i dont think the paperwork has caught up with the current rules, and personally agree that a temporary medical condition shouldnt have any impact on a soldiers carear.

    Also, while i do think that the CO and RSM in question were using a scare tactic to motivate their JNCO's, i think they would score a home goal with any downgraded personnel who were still motivated, whats the point of trying hard if you are going to receive no rewards because of a medical condition more often than not caused by service.
  10. I would think it is quite simple, if you are a lardy and you cannot pass your fitness test due to lardiness and the MO agrees, then you cannot be promoted.

    Should, however your failure to pass be due to injury and you are seen to be taking action, ie, physio, light PT you have a right to go on the promotion board if your other qualities are up to it.

    I am in the process of a recovering from an illness and working towards becoming a supa fit being again, which shows commitment and self discipline. I would without doubt complain if my CR made a mention to me being a knacker as I know deep down that not being able to attempt the fitness test is not my fault. Apart from that, I don't think a CR can mention any genuine illnesses :?:
  11. the only fitness that can be mentioned in crs and mya is how you do in all itd related fitness ie bpfa icft bcft. if your a knacker on a troop run so what if youve pased the above test in that reporting period then your ok so no matter how much rupert and wodney complain they cant hold you against it as for the co and rsm saying biffs will only get shit jobs well they just dropped themselves init for discrimnation and the unit EO offr should sort them out asap cos all it takes is one conplaint and the shit will roll up hill. under terms and conditions of service being downgraged can no longer bar you from promotion although it will bar you from being promoted into some jobs ie plt sgt sect cpl all good running about jobs where being able bodied counts. but for joe storeman or regt postie no probs on promotion
  12. chimera

    chimera LE Moderator

    It is worth differentiating between medically downgraded due to illness/long term injury, and those who are just unfit. Many in the former category try their hardest to get stuck in, the system will recognise that and promote them (into an appropriate job).

    The fact is that para-padre is right in the sense that if you pass the BASIC fitness test then you are ELIGIBLE to be promoted, but that doesn't mean that you will be. Every Arm and Service promotes in every rank on some sort of grading/board system based on Annual Appraisals. If there is a disparaging remark about someone's fitness in relation to their peergroup then he/she will score less highly. That is why MOST half decent soldiers, NCOs, warrant officers, and officers try hard to stay fit, and get promoted and idle gut buckets don't. I don't think many professional soldiers would have a problem with that concept.
  13. 8O

    I know from experience many personnel from my unit who have joined up straight from trade training and have been downgraded almost straight away. Some are genuine and honest enough to admit it. However personal it may be, if someone has an injury or illness, it actually effects everybody. When we have work to do as in weekend works, evenings etc and the sick lame and lazy are unable to work, the CO has now decreed, the personnel who cannot work or can only do light duties, it is now policy that they will work the same hours or near as damm it and they do maintenance, clean up etc. (they don't like it one bit) The best part about it, it has made the workplace a lot better, people don't tend to moan about the sickies. You could argue forever about it. If people have been injured due to work or Army Sport, they have a right to their sickness. Long Term, when it affects the working of your establishment, then it's time to get rid of them and pay them off. Bring in people who can work and make it a better place.

    Seems a little harsh, but if that attitude was adopted, you would find 30-40% of those personnel returning back to work and stop bluffing it and making the work harder for everyone else. Who knows, they might even be reading this right now. No offence to you but I joined the Army to be the best.....not be depressed.

    PS Doc can I have my repeat perscription of uppers. (And that's another big issue).
  14. The policy for the Gunners is below, I cannot comment on any other Regt.

    The point is twofold: firstly if the person is a fat knacker and unable to pass the mandatory fitness tests due to his sloth then his CR should reflect it and he should not get promoted. Secondly if he is non-FE due to a medical condition, then he should be eligible for promotion, however many COs will not be willing to have a permanently downgraded JNCO or SNCO in his establishment holding up the promotions of others. It is a fine line that must be tread - I have known many medically downgraded JNCOs and SNCOs who have perfect in the Mess, guardroom, postroom and Training Wing doing jobs that others would not have wanted even with promotion, especially if it allows them to run out.