serious debate / opinions

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by sirbhp, Sep 12, 2012.

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  1. sirbhp

    sirbhp LE Book Reviewer

    ok here we go , back in the day the Muslims were top notch at science , engineering Astronomy etc . The were ahead of the game in so many ways , so why didint they develop in to a modern community instead or seemingly going backwards like the Pakistanis here in uk for example . Some one told me ages ago it was because the Muslim states did not have an Industrial Revolution at all, but if they travel they world as they have how come their attitude's and way of life does not become more modern. Like the banning of music or the foul treatment of women despite the fact the the prophet treated women as equal .

    I am not trying to start a racial slagging of of the Muslims but a serious quest to discover why their religion seems to keep them in the dark ages after such a spectacular start .
  2. I think it's important to note its only the real stay true to the book ones. Same could be said for the amish people who are Christians.
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  3. Based on experience of Muslim societies from outside the Middle East, I'd say it wasn't the religion at all but the pre-existing cultural baggage it couldn't displace.
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  4. Exactly the same thing happened with Christianity hence the errr dark ages.

    You either grow out of it and your faith starts to "move with the times" or you don't and eventually you're a foot note in some archaeologists dissertation.

    Mussies probably have a couple of thousand years in them yet though.
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  5. It varies from Muslim to Muslim I think, a Muslim guy I know as a family friend is a well paid surgeon at the local hospital, lives in a big house with a very nice car, flat screen TV's, all the mod cons, very pleasant bloke, sends us a seasons greetings card at Christmas and will even knock back a wine with us at Christmas! Known him for a good 15 years now and he's always been fine. He doesn't neglect his religion but he's by no means one of the nutters either. Granted the majority of his Muslim brothers would probably string him up for being so westernised, but he's in no danger of that living on the north east coast of England. If they were all like him there wouldn't be half the bother going on around the world
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  6. The reason is simple. Religions exist to control people, and knowledge and understanding threaten the hold that religions have.
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  7. If they were more like us you mean?

    There wouldn't really be an Islam either, at least not as we currently understand it.

    That's probably what 'll happen eventually, but there's at least a century or so of pogroms, purging, culling and inquisiting to go first.
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  8. Possibly because Islam is the youngest of the world's major religions. It's only been around for a thousand years or so. A thousand years ago, Christians were torturing and killing people on a scale and with a level of enthusiasm that would have made Bin Ladin wince. Eventually, Christianity mellowed with age and the vast majority of Christians realized there were far more pleasant ways to spend one's time.
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  9. Err US. Convicts what are you smoking ? Do you mean Australia? Or Are you mental?
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  10. I'd wager that the majority of their lifestyle choices are cultural (historically cultural) rather than religious.
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  11. With regards to tolerance or even acceptance of other people who don't believe the same things as them, yes. But as you say, its clearly centuries away and not something you or I will ever see on a large scale
  12. Sirbhp; guess I don't quite grasp what you mean when you state "going backwards like the Pakistanis in UK for example." Not being patronising but in a modern society, our fellow British citizens will advance or no, as do any of their contemporaries in society. I went to a school prizegiving last night and a young ethnic lady seemed to have performed academically rather well. Perhaps on reflection you might have phrased your comment rather differently?
  13. There's a huge degree of diversity among Muslims. The one that Tricky mentioned is very much more the sort that I know. But of course they don't make the papers. An Egyptian friend of mine is a devout Moslem -- observes Ramadan, doesn't touch alcohol, etc. But you wouldn't catch her dead in a headscarf, she always wishes me and her (many) other Christian friends Happy Christmas (I finally remembered to wish her Eid Kareem this year -- progress) and she's an enthusiastic supporter of a shelter for stray dogs in Alexandria. A world away from the nutjobs who'll go on the rampage because of some real or imagined slight on their religion.
  14. You seem to be missing the point.

    Assuming religion is a political tool to control your population, and advance of civilisations is much more to do with the prosperity of your populace and not what sky pixie they believe in.

    Now 2000-1500 years ago the Middle East from orbit would have looked staggeringly different. The Euphraties was a major, major farming valley. Syria was amongst the bread baskets of Asia. The whole region was a farmer's paradise. Populations boomed, cities thrived, commerce was through the roof. Scientific and cultural developments were made at a lightening pace!

    Over the centuries and millenia, the Middle East has been invaded by the desert, turning the landscape into inhospitable, sandy shite holes we see today, where in times past there was the gardens Of Babylon, literaly.

    The population immigrated, farming stopped, poverty prevailed, and militancy rose. In this environment there was no chance of technological, artistic or scientific advance. Just as Europe rose, with the advance in living standards, which eventually led to the industrial Revolution, the Muslim world declined. Their only way out has presented itself recently, with the discovery of oil, and other minerals.

    So, Islam has little to do with it.
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  15. In my humble opinion, the main issue is religion, and by extension control. The opinion of some (with loud voices) seems to be that capitalism can't work without exploitation and racketeering, both of which are expressly forbidden by Islam. (Unless you're talking about the exploitation of women, in which case the instruction is apparently to "crack on son".)

    I also think there's an issue with the many Islamic countries who seem to make a connection between modernisation and conquest. I am most certainly not banging on the "Colonialism is the root of all evil" drum, but in the case of countries such as Palestine, Kashmir and Pakistan their eventual emancipation left rather blurry border lines and unstable governments, resulting in many conflicts which have cost countless fortunes to fight and resulted in an over-emphasis of the military within government. And while I have every respect for the military, I don't believe martial law is conducive to democracy, capitalism or a humanitarian approach. This isn't just the case in Islamic countries - you can see the same effect in the histories of many formerly colonised countries - Uganda, Argentina and Burma, to name but a few.

    Then there is the sectarian conflict within Islam itself (Shia, Sunni etc, and the dozens of factions within each). In the words of Rich Hall "There's an inch of difference in those religions, and they're killing each other every day. Just goes to show that with no blacks or Jews to hate, people will fuckin' improvise". Again, this costs a bloody fortune and creates instability, which curbs economic growth.

    This is of course just my two pence, but it's a fascinating subject.

    Now back to the gin.