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Serious and Organised Crime in the UK. Anyone read the NAO report?

Import a Third World population and you import Third World levels of desperation and concomitant levels of crime and violence, together with a ready-made pool of victims and perpetrators. Restrict immigration levels to our ability to effectively assimilate and we might make some progress.
According to the Home Office, 2/3rd of SOC is facilitated by illicit border movements , so (arguably), tighten border controls and this will restrict c £25Bn of SOC. Other channels will be found, but restricting immigration will not stop cyber scams or romance scams (£25 M lost through the latter pa), or drugs and weapons smuggling, for example.
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
According to the Home Office, 2/3rd of SOC is facilitated by illicit border movements , so (arguably), tighten border controls and this will restrict c £25Bn of SOC. Other channels will be found, but restricting immigration will not stop cyber scams or romance scams (£25 M lost through the latter pa), or drugs and weapons smuggling, for example.

Immigration controls are, by definition, an implicit element of border controls.

You're not going to 'Stop' anything, but you may be able to make it far harder by doing the basics..
 

Yokel

LE
I am currently watching the programme about 'bomb' disposal on Channel Four. The narrator said that organised criminals are increasingly using improvised explosives. I wonder if they get local idiots to go magnet fishing for them?

What proportion of murders or other violent offences are connected to the gangs? How many innocent people get caught in the crossfire?
 
Import a Third World population and you import Third World levels of desperation and concomitant levels of crime and violence, together with a ready-made pool of victims and perpetrators. Restrict immigration levels to our ability to effectively assimilate and we might make some progress.

But not allowing the conditions for a Marxist revolution in this country is apparently racist
 
There is a world of difference as they are finding out, as are the Met with their direct entry to the CID.
You can be PIP 152 trained for all anyone cares but if you do not have any previous experience of dealing with criminality and crims then you are going to really struggle.
It is all a question of horses for courses, and shovelling all your recruiting onto the Civil Service Jobs website wasn't the best move in the world of recruiting.
Unless you have previously and extensively dealt with criminals, understand them, their way of thinking and how they work, then how can you deal with them effectively?
You can't is the answer.
Sometimes you may even have to think like them, in order to anticipate them, a novel idea these days I know.

At this level of criminality you will only ever get one go at taking out the top tier, just one go so you had better get it right first time.
And they aren't currently.

An analogy.
If your boiler packs up in the middle of winter do you call a heating engineer with 15 years hands-on experience as such, or a bloke who was working for DVLA up until 3 weeks ago but has done a correspondence course on boilers and came top of his course?
And yours is his first hands-on job.

I know who most people would call.

To be fair, the Met's detectives didn't exactly cover themselves in glory with Operation Midland, either.
 
To be fair, the Met's detectives didn't exactly cover themselves in glory with Operation Midland, either.
My point exactly, there are very very few detectives left nationally in the true sense of the word.
Lots of "investigators" though, for what that is worth.
Public service across the board since the late '90s is a shadow of what it should be.
From Customs, to Immigration, law-enforcement and the Fire Brigade to DHSS, all of it.
When you can take half a day off a week to go to a Police HQ and attend a 'wellbeing day' (on company time and full pay) then something has gone very seriously wrong.
This is the reality of modern day public service, and it is not ever going back to what it was intended to do, serve the public.
 
My point exactly, there are very very few detectives left nationally in the true sense of the word.
Lots of "investigators" though, for what that is worth.
Public service across the board since the late '90s is a shadow of what it should be.
From Customs, to Immigration, law-enforcement and the Fire Brigade to DHSS, all of it.
When you can take half a day off a week to go to a Police HQ and attend a 'wellbeing day' (on company time and full pay) then something has gone very seriously wrong.
This is the reality of modern day public service, and it is not ever going back to what it was intended to do, serve the public.
Prior to the formation of SOCA, Customs had one of the best reputations in law enforcement in the world.
Corruption was virtually nil-I'm sure there's a correlation.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
I've just read the NAO report, noting with concern the part about 'value for money' which is an understandable aim of the NAO but not necessarily something which the police and other agencies can achieve as the basic footwork involved in investigating crime is costly, with financial returns being hard to measure. Crime prevention is costly up front and particularly hard to explain to accountants if successful.

There are also some government practices which have created opportunities for fraudsters/organised crime - for example, asking importers to self-declare the VAT payable on imported goods, rather than paying civil servants to visit bonded warehouses to check. The decision of HMG to rarely prosecute shoplifting where the value of goods stolen is less than £200 is also a case in point. Now shoplifting is done to order, or to feed the lower levels of organised crime (theft to support drug habits, for example). HMG is looking again at that decision.

In practical terms, HMG could do more to publicise some of the scams/tactics of organised crime. In the UK, reports of fraud are managed by Action Fraud. The people I work for have been reporting a specific fraud to AF for coming up to a year and a half. The fraud is still carrying on, and is still as far as i can see profitable. We've tried with some success to issue warnings, but few media bodies were interested. We've had no news at all from AF and that is a bit dispiriting. Other scams have recently emerged. To someone in the know, they are easily spotted and more could be done to issue precise and high profile warnings, akin to the informal warnings about types of fraud one sees on social media, but official.

The police being funded, and ordered, to focus on the sort of low level crime which feeds into the more glamarous or high profile stuff, would also help.

Lastly, there needs to be less red tape at the police/law enforcement end of things - for example, the moment that AF learns of the use by fraudsters of a 'temporary' bank account, to receive funds, it should be shut down. That day even. Law enforcement needs to be as agile as OC.
Action Fraud got an absolute shoeing in a Radio 4 documentary last year. This laid bare the true extent of financial crime - crime which gets left off the official figures as it's so rife.

Amongst, others, the documentary detailed the attempts of a young guy to enlist AF's help after his credit card details got stolen.

He reported various purchases to his card holder, who basically then turned around and accused him of having spent the money himself and then to weasel his way out of paying.

He went to AF and got nothing.

He eventually went to the various stores on Oxford Street where the spending spree had taken place. He was eventually able to elicit a description from one of them of the miscreant, and tie up across the various other stores that it was the same person (and not him).

The impression was that AF is pretty damn useless, if I'm honest. Yet it's supposed to be our vanguard organisation.
 
Immigration controls are, by definition, an implicit element of border controls.

You're not going to 'Stop' anything, but you may be able to make it far harder by doing the basics..
Well....chronologically, oldest first



The madness of HMRC and Border Force cuts as we face Brexit
 

Yokel

LE
I am currently watching a recording of Panorama from earlier this week. It was about the way banks (in Britain) turned a blind eye to the way organised criminals and even terrorists using their services to move money around.

I have an uneasy feeling Government cuts have reduced the number of investigators that look into financial crime on behalf of HM Treasury.
 
I am currently watching a recording of Panorama from earlier this week. It was about the way banks (in Britain) turned a blind eye to the way organised criminals and even terrorists using their services to move money around.

I have an uneasy feeling Government cuts have reduced the number of investigators that look into financial crime on behalf of HM Treasury.
Spooks is being repeated on the Drama channel and one of the recent episodes was about that very thing. In reality, money laundering is a very big problem.

I believe HMRC have their own investigators and intelligence officers who look into financial crime and who liaise with other law enforcement partners.
 
Spooks is being repeated on the Drama channel and one of the recent episodes was about that very thing. In reality, money laundering is a very big problem.

I believe HMRC have their own investigators and intelligence officers who look into financial crime and who liaise with other law enforcement partners.
May I respectfully suggest that individual agencies potentially involved in the panoply of those required to successfully prosecute a required specific action, should remain the realm of tv without straying into specifics. Sanitised public releases of successful outcomes are released occasionally, however they do not delve into specifics or individual agencies except if those releasing them want an individual agency to take the credit. Lets just leave it as a team effort.
 
That's a different type of policing and will have no effect on serious and organised crime. It's like comparing apples and oranges. No doubt the type of policing you describe has its place but SOC and against OCGs is not it.

Even the iconic criminals and gangsters of the '60s & '70s, the Krays, Richardsons et al are a magnitude apart from todays' OCGs. In the '60s it was all protection rackets, horse and dog racing scams, gambling dens and betting syndicates, bank and post office robberies. The criminal gangs largely kept themselves to themselves and were content with generally ruling a small patch of turf, bringing in a bit of money and living a flamboyant lifestyle.. Even the Italian mob wasn't interested in the UK as it was too low level and not enough money to be made. That's all changed and the biggest problems now are drugs, drugs and more drugs, firearms, child abuse and exploitation, organised immigration crime, people trafficking and cyber crime. The OCGs now are various flavours of Mafia, Turks, Pikeys as well as the more traditional family-based crime groups. The methods of communication and levels of organisation are beyond compare. What worked 30, 40, 50 years ago against crime gangs is not going to work now.
In Ireland, the most effective policing methods of OCGs seem to be what could be termed saturation policing. Swamping an area with overt Garda patrolling and checkpoints. Basically making it extremely difficult for them to operate for an extended period.

of course in Ireland’s case many of them are families and leave geographically in estates close to each other etc which makes it much easier.

over the past 6 months, due to covid, Gardai have been on 12 hour shift means a lot more available.

drugs seizures at covid checkpoints have been huge. If only Government would permanently provide the manpower
 
What makes you say that? Organised crime is basically run like a business with bosses that have management ability and the means of avoiding much of the risk by getting their underlings to do the dirty work. They also have money and resources to put into criminal enterprises, pay bribes, and so on.


My bold.
Governments in all but name?
 
Set up a hybrid organisation of Police, Border force and the DSS.
Go through the country with a fine toothed comb and expel ANYONE here illegally or foreign nationals involved in crime.
If they re enter the UK then they will be incarcerated and be forced to do hard labour for a minimum of 25 years.

Then shoot them.
Include HMRC in that gang....tax evasion, particularly amongst those who arrived since the 1950s (and identify as 'self-employed'), is rife. That coupled with 17% population growth in the past 30yrs explains why this country is in clip.
 
Set up a hybrid organisation of Police, Border force and the DSS.
Go through the country with a fine toothed comb and expel ANYONE here illegally or foreign nationals involved in crime.
If they re enter the UK then they will be incarcerated and be forced to do hard labour for a minimum of 25 years.

Then shoot them.
So no U.K. nationals are involved in crime or work with non-U.K. nationals who are?
 

4(T)

LE
Action Fraud got an absolute shoeing in a Radio 4 documentary last year. This laid bare the true extent of financial crime - crime which gets left off the official figures as it's so rife.

Amongst, others, the documentary detailed the attempts of a young guy to enlist AF's help after his credit card details got stolen.

He reported various purchases to his card holder, who basically then turned around and accused him of having spent the money himself and then to weasel his way out of paying.

He went to AF and got nothing.

He eventually went to the various stores on Oxford Street where the spending spree had taken place. He was eventually able to elicit a description from one of them of the miscreant, and tie up across the various other stores that it was the same person (and not him).

The impression was that AF is pretty damn useless, if I'm honest. Yet it's supposed to be our vanguard organisation.




One has to suspect that AF is simply a government device deliberately intended to sweep a vast chunk of crime under the carpet.



My uncle was induced to hand over his life savings to some jolly Irish builders. When he was just about down to his last pennies, his bank and the Met police intervened to block the account. We relatives only found out months later, when he was hospitalised. I took over his financial affairs under LPoA.

The police were "unable to investigate further" until the affair had been reported to AF. AF were duly handed the police and bank correspondence, the entire bank history of transactions, the names and addresses of the perpetrators, and adult social services assessments.

(p.s. AF gives you 200 characters on the online form in which to describe your case. Talk about NFI.)

A few months later, AF sent a standard unsigned letter stating that there was no evidence with which to investigate further. The two police forces involved then subsequently sent their "case closed" letters.


A solicitor specialising in crime against oldies later told me that they'd not had a single case progressed by AF.
 

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