Serbian Linguists in country.

Nehustan

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#1
Just a thought, I was wondering if any Arrsers are in the Balkans? The reason I'm asking is really due to a hypothesis I have about WWI (it was just mentioned in another thread again). Evidence to support this hypothesis and I suppose lead me to forumlate my theory as to a cause of WWI would require two things that a.) I speak Serbo Croat (I don't) and b.) that I would have access to newspapers from the Balkans circa 1900 presumably archived in that region (I'm not there). What I would be looking for is any allusion to Franz Ferdinand's travels in the Levant and further afield. A cartoon would be superb, either of his time in the Levant, or say perhaps in a telling exchange with the Turk with caption something along the lines of 'Franz Ferdinand the dhimmi'. Thanks.
 
#4
Next_to_the_Tank said:
There might be a FF tribute (walt?) band doing CSE shows.

Nehustan you could try the British Library - closer and the staff speak English.
The voice of sanity again from Next To Tank
 

Nehustan

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#5
I should have seen those comments coming. The British Library is a good idea tho', I'm just not sure how detailed their archive would be. I do have a Serbian colleague at work, as well as others from the Balkans, so you're right if they had some relevant stuff at the B. Lib that I needed translating.. I just have this feeling that it won't be extensive.
 
#6
clownbasher said:
I don't think Franz Ferdinand will be doing a Middle East tour this summer, it would hardly be sensible would it
You never know - they might be mobilised - they're even making me do a tour this year and my last one was before next to the tank girl's

On thread - what are you trying to prove?

WW1 is some form of islamist plot? I hear the Turks launched a zeppelin and tried to crash it into Sarajevo but it bounced off.
 

Nehustan

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#7
combatintman said:
clownbasher said:
I don't think Franz Ferdinand will be doing a Middle East tour this summer, it would hardly be sensible would it
You never know - they might be mobilised - they're even making me do a tour this year and my last one was before next to the tank girl's

On thread - what are you trying to prove?

WW1 is some form of islamist plot? I hear the Turks launched a zeppelin and tried to crash it into Sarajevo but it bounced off.

Well actually the first of the black hand guys in the 'ambush' let Mr and Mrs Franz drive straight passed, his excuse being a jammed weapon. He was the only Muslim in the hit squad. Really its more to do with a Serbian plot than an Islamicist, and the Serbian dislike for a.) the Turk and b.) The Austro Hungarians, and the connection between the two. There is a link as they were allies in the war, I was really interested in how close ties were between Franz and the Turk and subsequently other regions in Dar As Salaam prior to WWI, and see if there is any mileage in this as factored into the assasination. I'm also intrigued as to whether the black hand had any association with the Order of the Dragon, even just as a group that may have had pretensions toward it.
 
#8
Nehustan said:
combatintman said:
clownbasher said:
I don't think Franz Ferdinand will be doing a Middle East tour this summer, it would hardly be sensible would it
You never know - they might be mobilised - they're even making me do a tour this year and my last one was before next to the tank girl's

On thread - what are you trying to prove?

WW1 is some form of islamist plot? I hear the Turks launched a zeppelin and tried to crash it into Sarajevo but it bounced off.

Well actually the first of the black hand guys in the 'ambush' let Mr and Mrs Franz drive straight passed, his excuse being a jammed weapon. He was the only Muslim in the hit squad. Really its more to do with a Serbian plot than an Islamicist, and the Serbian dislike for a.) the Turk and b.) The Austro Hungarians, and the connection between the two. There is a link as they were allies in the war, I was really interested in how close ties were between Franz and the Turk and subsequently other regions in Dar As Salaam prior to WWI, and see if there is any mileage in this as factored into the assasination. I'm also intrigued as to whether the black hand had any association with the Order of the Dragon, even just as a group that may have had pretensions toward it.
OK - I was having a laugh earlier - however having read the quote above it sounds like you've made you're mind up already by putting quotes around the word ambush and stating that the muslim in the ambush used the - excuse - of a jammed weapon.

As to Austria Hungary and Turkey/Ottoman Empire being Allies in WW1 well most history would put it down to two main factors:

Cultivation of the Ottomans by the Germans.

German support for the Austro-Hungarians.

To make any more of it than that is stretching the imagination too far - do you really think there's more to it than that.

However - let's take it further - the muslim with the jammed weapon actually did not fire because his weapon was jammed - I'm just not sure how that fits into the Serb plot theory. What was the endstate of the Serb plot then - to make Austria-Hungary, Germany and the Ottoman Empire Allies - how in the short-term would that favour the Serbs? If your view is a long-term view I just don't buy it all - how would they know how it would pan out - we're all still agonising over the Balkans now.
 
#9
Now it all fits into place :!:

Bosnia - mujahideen - grassy knoll - tin foil hat.

Next thing you know the USAF will be bombing Sarajevo

Or perhaps it's an Austro -Hungarian - Prussian plot 8O ..............
 
#10
Iraqi_DMI said:
Now it all fits into place :!:

Bosnia - mujahideen - grassy knoll - tin foil hat.

Next thing you know the USAF will be bombing Sarajevo

Or perhaps it's an Austro -Hungarian - Prussian plot 8O ..............
Damn the KuK Geheimdienst and its pernicious plots.

Shame that the Bosniaks got such a good deal under the Dual Monarchy, really.
 
#11
Iraqi_DMI said:
Now it all fits into place :!:

Bosnia - mujahideen - grassy knoll - tin foil hat.

Next thing you know the USAF will be bombing Sarajevo

Or perhaps it's an Austro -Hungarian - Prussian plot 8O ..............
Colonel mustard in the kitchen with the lead pipe?
 
#12
combatintman said:
Iraqi_DMI said:
Now it all fits into place :!:

Bosnia - mujahideen - grassy knoll - tin foil hat.

Next thing you know the USAF will be bombing Sarajevo

Or perhaps it's an Austro -Hungarian - Prussian plot 8O ..............
Colonel mustard in the kitchen with the lead pipe?
That would be Staatsgeheimrat Senf von Kurszaly in the kitchen with the Blechrohr?
 

Nehustan

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#13
I'll reserve the tinfoil until further research, I'll prepare it and leave it next to my fez :twisted: . I've done a little research into our mate Franz and he did seem to spend quite a while in the Levant. I'm certainly not speculating about Serbian dislike for the Turk, nor subsequently Austro Hungary. It does sound a bit far fetched but it would be easily falsified by a good look through an archive. I'd bet a fiver there were cartoons in the Serbian Press portraying Franz as a friend to the Turk and thus an 'appeaser'. The Serbs looked at themselves (re: order of dragon) as the prototypical defenders of Christendom against the dragon (i.e. Islam). If the ruler that took control after the Turk then figuratively got into bed with them it would have raised blood. As was pointed out there was mutual support between the Othmans and the Hapsburgs (even if through '6 degrees'), that the black hand assasination was a conspiracy? I didn't think that that was contested.
 
#14
Nehustan,

You could try getting your head around some of the basic A' Level History books on the causes of the First World War. They will give you all the background on the alliances and relationships between the Great Powers and the smaller Balkan countries - you might even get the cartoons you are looking for (even try back issues of Punch - they are easy to source). Some theory based on the individual carrying out the assassination is pointless unless you understand the context of the times.
 
#15
Nehustan, maybe some of your friends on MPACUK might be able source relevant articles?
 

Nehustan

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On ROPs
#16
Next_to_the_Tank said:
Nehustan,

You could try getting your head around some of the basic A' Level History books on the causes of the First World War. They will give you all the background on the alliances and relationships between the Great Powers and the smaller Balkan countries - you might even get the cartoons you are looking for (even try back issues of Punch - they are easy to source). Some theory based on the individual carrying out the assassination is pointless unless you understand the context of the times.
Not a bad idea as I only covered the era at O'level, and that was definately from a western european perspective. I have a feeling that that is going to be the case with A'level books too. What was going on in Central/Eastern Europe may have a completely different slant to it and origin, after all our reasons for war and others can be lost in the dust. For instance the whole China/Japan thing in WWII, yet we have the war as 1939-1945. Of course I did the obligatory essay as a kid as 'What were the long and short term causes of...' with the assasination being the tinder. I just find the more I read about Ferdinand specifically (over years) the more I get a gut feeling that there was more to his death than is reported in at least the books I have read. I sense a whole dynamic of intrigue in the event resulting in the continuation of the long standing conflict in the region, that as somebody pointed out lit again in the late part of last century.

I recall watching some of the propaganda film from the recent Balkan conflict (a Serbian film), and that very much drew on the knight who founded the order of the dragon, so this seems to be very much in the national psyche in the 90s, is it so strange to think that it was also 100 years prior?

As to the people that actually carried out the assasination I actually doubt that they are that important, and as to who organised it, we will surely never know that as 'fact'.
 

Nehustan

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On ROPs
#17
Wench3000 said:
Nehustan, maybe some of your friends on MPACUK might be able source relevant articles?
I doubt it, I don't think that many of them are either a.) Serbocroat linguists or b.) Miltary historians. I thought I might find either/or here.

I tend to discuss relevant matters in relevant forums, tho' admittedly sometimes there is overlap. I might ask a Arrse mod to move this to the Miltary history thread tho'. My subject is not history other than as a feature of politcal anthropology, but I have noticed that there are a few people studying degrees/having studied degrees in history. Maybe I can buy their A'level books, they probably have absolutely no use for them any more.
 
#18
I thought that the assassination was a Russian/Serbian plot. What was the name of the Turk/muslim?

From what I can recall, there were two attempts on his life that day, a grenade attack, and the fatal shooting. What is the source of info about a jammed weapon?
 

Nehustan

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On ROPs
#19
[align=center]
[/align]

"The Fez, which was part of the Handzar division's uniform, is the same one Bosnian soldiers wore in the Austro-Hungarian military. Only the emblems were changed. The photo shows a field gray jacket with emblems on the collar and on the camouflage uniform."

[align=center]Source[/align]

[align=center]
[/align]

[align=center]and interestingly I found a page on a small Balkanesque type conflict in 1897/98 on Crete, now I didn't know about that...[/align]

[align=center]Crete[/align]
 
#20
Nehustan said:
Just a thought, I was wondering if any Arrsers are in the Balkans? The reason I'm asking is really due to a hypothesis I have about WWI (it was just mentioned in another thread again). Evidence to support this hypothesis and I suppose lead me to forumlate my theory as to a cause of WWI would require two things that a.) I speak Serbo Croat (I don't) and b.) that I would have access to newspapers from the Balkans circa 1900 presumably archived in that region (I'm not there). What I would be looking for is any allusion to Franz Ferdinand's travels in the Levant and further afield. A cartoon would be superb, either of his time in the Levant, or say perhaps in a telling exchange with the Turk with caption something along the lines of 'Franz Ferdinand the dhimmi'. Thanks.
PM me if you need any translation work done. Also it's not really the done thing to call the language Serbo-Croat anymore; the Croats speak Croat, Serbs speak Serbian - there are differences and some of them on both countries get quite uptight about it.
 

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