Septics want Frocks on the front line?

was not suggesting they were incapable, just interested in your thoughts.

Women in the RN are already on the "front line" when Ships enter combat ops.

so not a new concept really.

I think a lot of it comes down to the Israeli experience in the 70's and early eighties. I also think western society has moved on a whole stage or two on it's dealings with 'wimmin' so that the Israeli experience would not occur again.

To be honest, I'm more interested in what the 'wimmin' themselves think
check out the Israeli Defence Force, women tank commanders :D
I think, personally, that the populace wont stand for it the minute the press starts sending pics around of fems in bodybags. we all know what journo's are like for inciting upset against the armed services....they would have a field day.

Filbert Fox said:
check out the Israeli Defence Force, women tank commanders :D

Women in Israeli Combat Units


In 1999, Israel announced that women would begin serving as combat soldiers in the year 2000. According to a plan prepared by the Israel Defense Forces, female units would serve along the Egyptian and Jordanian borders and, eventually, take on the vast majority of border patrol duty. The Carcal company, for example, is being trained to patrol the border for drug smugglers and terrorist infiltrators. This is a coed unit whose 200 female soldiers outnumber the men by 2-to-1.

In early 2000, the IDF decided to also deploy women in the artillery corps, followed by infantry units, armored divisions and elite combat units. The Navy has also decided to place women in its diving repair unit. Altogether, at the beginning of 2004, about 450 women were in combat units.

Female soldiers are supposed to be trained and responsible for the same duties as their male counterparts. Those recruited for combat units have to serve for 30 months instead of the current mandatory period for women of 21 months.
Agree with comment that the media will decide whether women in combat is acceptable.

Recent Sky News survey demonstrated that the parents of our recruting pool were even unhappy about their sons joining the army. Let alone their daughters.

Potential for the beheading of a woman in Iraq (Margaret Hassan) may forestall any talk of women in combat.
Filbert Fox said:
check out the Israeli Defence Force, women tank commanders :D
There was a danish female tank troop leader in Bosnia whose idea of reasonable force during a contact was for her and her troop to return fire with 50+ rounds. Slight overkill 8O and not much left of the field where the trench had been :roll:

She must have had the painters in :lol:


I believe in equal rights and being a female myself, I think women should be able to fight for our country too, providing they were trained to the same standards as the men. One argument against women being on the front line, is that a lot of men I know have admitted that they'd probably look out for the women more than the other blokes, so causing a problem, for example, if they had to choose between a male and a female in a life/death situation... Anyone else got any thoughts on this?
Israeli Army included 12,000 women were combatants in the 1948 War of Independence, Initially women were fully integrated into the Israeli army, they trained, fought and were billeted with men. Eventually political pressure led to the creation of segregated male and female units with the women's units assigned primarily to support functions. Those women who were already assigned to mixed-gender combat units remained with their units and continued to fight on the front lines. Although women were ordered out of the front lines by David Ben Gurion in 1950 there were numerous reports of Israeli women fighting in both 1956 and 1960 and reports of female commandos, including Lt. Yael Dayan, daughter of Moshe Dayan, fighting as late as 1966.
The Israeli Army did research into women's effectiveness as front line troops, and discovered that childless women were just as good or better than men, but that women who had children were significantly less effective because they were much more reluctant to kill people.
well I would be against it for a few reasons.

1. Physical capability (in most cases)
2. The cost of providing seperate facilities etc
3. The effect a few females would have on a platoon of lads (this is my biggest problem with it, the other two are just me being sceptical)

maybe they could have an all womens battalion who could stag on at the bases to let the other units do patrols etc?
Until the female fitness and stamina levels are the same as males (without lowering the level for all) then I have to question their suitability.

1. There are only body bags for second place, the strongest survive. There are very few women capable of defeating a man in hand to hand fighting etc. Remember female infantry would be expected to overcome and kill enemy men.
2. In my Experience women suffer more from fatigue over longer durations, and become less effective quicker.
3. Sexual diversion, men are distracted by women(and visa-versa) anybody who ignores this is talking bollocks, I've seen it happen at all levels and in ALL messes. A relationship (or one night stand ) leads to all sorts of problems and even fragmentation of an organisation. Esp when under additional stresses ie combat.
4. POW. Does anyone remember what happened to the US Female officer captured in GW1? If I recall the poor woman was raped 40+ times in a day! Its one thing being mistreated, but throughout history women have always come off worst when captured. How would you feel if one of your section was raped by the enemy in front of you?

Don't get me wrong, everyone who wants one, has a place within the Armed Forces, just not in all roles.
Women make the best nurses. Wounded troops want mama, a femme substitute is acceptable.
The rooshins tried femme combat troops in WW II and got rid of them as soon as possible.
Many years ago the Brit army review said the reason why the rooshins and isrealis got rid of femmes in combat was that men could not stand their screams of pain and stopped combat to aid wounded women.
PS as has been said a million times before if men had Babies there would be a lot less pregnancies. Women stand pain better.
Seeing as this thread is wandering aimlessly thought I'd add my bit. In '89 I spent 2 excellent years with the Booties. I'm sure I can remember in Navy Regs a section on levels of female fitness. They felt the need to give some examples of why females needed to achieve these levels and these included, 'must be capable of lifting heavy typewriters' and must be capable of lifing heavy saucepans'. Classic stuff. Oh for those simple days.
Coed combat units?

Wonderful source of pregnant soldiers and intractable morale problems.

This isn't Israel; we've got a bigger population to draw on.

That's my civvy opinion and I'm sticking to it.
I think there is more of modern political correctness behind it than anything else.

There are many jobs women can do, but the front line isn't one of them.
All good and valid points, perhaps Cait/BBC/Viki/RRB/Poppy would like to comment? would be good to get a balanced feel to the argument?

Personally, coming from the Signals i have seen how women in general can affect the effectiveness of a team, i dont mean this in a bad way, what i meant is i have know of guys and gals on excercise, 2am in the comcen, bored to feck, nothing on the telly, down to the last 2 biscuits, and just start bumping uglies...fine so far - who wouldnt. but then he or she, bumps uglies with the next guy gal and gossip rises....then the first guy/gal finds out and gets mardy....people take sides, team work goes to poo. one of them is bound to be married and months later at a mess do, someone pished blurts out how funny it was to see bills spotty bum bobbing up and down on that new bint last exercise - and bills wife is listening.

At the end of the day we are a horny species. we WILL engage in sexual activity with members of the opposite sex (RAF excused of course ;) )
add to the the stress of combat, the thought "could this be the last time i see a woman again" and you will get problems, also as i said before - the media get everywhere these days, i know of journo's with more combat experience than marines i know. If we think shagging our shell scrape oppo is bad, wait till a journo with a 400mm telephoto lens snaps a colour pic of a bint with a entry and exit hole sprawled across a barbwire fence.

The public will go nuts.


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