Septic ATF arming Mexican drugs cartels

P

pp0470

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#2
The US Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) was in control of the programme, known as Operation Fast and Furious, which funnelled weapons to suspected gun smugglers in the hope of tracking the firearms to alleged drugs gang leaders in Mexico.

Its (ATF) gun trafficking operation was conducted despite suspicions by US authorities that the firearms could be used to commit crimes,
Brilliant!
 
#3
Is the problem Mexico not being able to prevent smuggling of 'Drugs' or the US's consumption.
I understand over 3,000 + civilians died in Mexico last year compared with 2,500 in Afghanistan.

john
 
#4
In another thread recently I pointed out that the majority of arms (probably abt 70%) goes in from the USA. Goldbricker chose to dissent from that point of view, but then perhaps that's part of the problem.....
 
#5
Americans hate the atf after waco and its inablility to let them have tactical nukes rpgs and machine guns at will :)
 
#8
don't think its against the law. Just considered weird and untexan:)
their was a case where a couple of bad guys shot a highway patrol man and were about to finish him off.
Local hunter saw what was going on and killed the bad guys with headshots. saved the coppers life got a reward from the judge:)

ugly tried that here against the next dereck bird might not go to jail
 
#9
don't think its against the law. Just considered weird and untexan:)
I once inquired about registering and storing firearms as a UK national in Texas (I was considering doing part of a degree there). I was told it would be 3 days before I could carry it in public.... 0.o
 
#10
yanks get upset about th ATF because it enforces the rather random nature of spam gunlaws.
the bonkers "assualt rifle ban"
which was nothing of the sort.
at least in this country semi-autos over .22 banned it maybe be shit but at least clear cut.
the yanks decided that things like bayonet lugs and folding stocks made an assualt a rifle so you could have four "evil" features and it was legal have 5 your going to jail boy.
also a certain % of any weapon had to be nice safe civillian parts not evil surplus parts.

to add to the fun a flash hider is an evil part but a muzzle break isn't diffrence depends what the maker calls it in the part catalouge.
so plenty of paranoia and lawyers fees avialable.
does nothing to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and nutters though.
 
#11
Is the problem Mexico not being able to prevent smuggling of 'Drugs' or the US's consumption.
I understand over 3,000 + civilians died in Mexico last year compared with 2,500 in Afghanistan.

john
Opinions differ. Mexico appears to be coming to terms with the drug trade and moving to a position where it is managed rather than try and eliminate it. Part of this is pragmatic - arguably the ceaseless demand for drugs from the US means abolition is, as it has always been, impossible. Even if it were possible the sheer amount of money available to the cartels mean the effort would cost the Mexican Govt an absolute fortune in blood and treasure. The favoured career path for the elite drug enforcer is, after all, to train up working for Mexican special forces. Hence the current position where they merely try to keep a lid on things.

Of course they can't tell the US that so you see a lot of heat and noise generated to hide the fact, add to that the traditional historic resentments and both sides glare at each other a lot but time after time have to come to terms with the fact that they are neighbours and have to get on somehow.

Hence the fuss about weapons is part of this. The base data is more nuanced, most weapons that can be traced come from the US. Note the "can be traced" bit. There are however untold untraceable weapons (AKs and the like) sloshing around and no-one has a clue on numbers or supply rates. US sourced weapons also tend to be higher profile status weapons or high end capability (eg .50 sniper) so they get more attention.

There is a small but noticeable trend in US intelligence discussions to start taking notice of South America. As the Mexican cartels increase their operations in the US I fear our cousins are in for a nasty shock - if what happens daily in the border towns comes to the US then they won't know what has hit them. As you point out, the Mexicans get a 9/11 body count every year at the moment.
 
#12
yanks get upset about th ATF because it enforces the rather random nature of spam gunlaws.
the bonkers "assualt rifle ban"
which was nothing of the sort.
at least in this country semi-autos over .22 banned it maybe be shit but at least clear cut.
the yanks decided that things like bayonet lugs and folding stocks made an assualt a rifle so you could have four "evil" features and it was legal have 5 your going to jail boy.
also a certain % of any weapon had to be nice safe civillian parts not evil surplus parts.

to add to the fun a flash hider is an evil part but a muzzle break isn't diffrence depends what the maker calls it in the part catalouge.
so plenty of paranoia and lawyers fees avialable.
does nothing to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and nutters though.
The 1994 "Assault Weapons Ban" sunsetted on Sept. 13, 2004 your quite behind the times. there is no more federal restriction on flash hiders, nor Bayonet lugs
Also with a permit from the ATF one can own a Vickers fully operational or any other Machinegun. Since the National Firearms act of 1934 was out into place there have been 2 cases were a registered Machinegun was used in a crime.
1 was a MAC10 used by a Doctor to kill his romantic rival

1 was a MAC10 again by a Police Officer to murder a confidential drug informant

Not too shabby for the over 300,000 registered Machineguns on the NFA list since 1934.
to own a Machinegun:
ATF form 4
http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5320-4.pdf

to own a Normal firearm (Rifle, pistol, shotgun):
http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdf

You also have your name, ssn number sent to the Department of Justice to see if you are a Prohibited person
FBI — Gun Checks/NICS

takes about 10-15 minutes to get a Go or No from the FBI.

Those are the Federal laws, each State and Municipality can add to the restrictions as they like.

As an example here in NYC, an M1 carbine is an assault rifle prohibited by law (Garands almost were banned as well). In NY State, Bayonet lugs on an AR-15, M1A, AK, SKS are banned as evil though the DOJ shows no one was ever murdered by fixed bayonet in the USA.
 
#13
It's always been American policy to undermine the Mexican government and provide weapons for mexican dissident groups. Here's one example clutching the evidence, Emiliano Zapata Salazar:



It now needs to be deniable, or at least in Washington.
 
#14
I once inquired about registering and storing firearms as a UK national in Texas (I was considering doing part of a degree there). I was told it would be 3 days before I could carry it in public.... 0.o
Back in the days of Open carry in the 1980's I used to regularly pack either My 1911 or a Colt SAA (.45LC) 4-3/4" bbl and walk past the Bell county sheriff or deputy sheriff and shoot the breeze with them. Then if I had carried Concealed I would have gone to jail, but open carry was fine. Funny thing crime was very low and anyone caught in a Burglary could be shot virtually no questions asked (home is a castle and all that). The only home in my neighborhood that was robbed, turned out to be some liberal from Massachusetts who didnt believe in guns. Karma I guess.
 
#15
sorry got confused with state and federal laws california has the most insane.
although city gun bans intrest me. how they are suppoused to help when you can buy what the hell you lik outside of the city limits I've no idea.
bad guys don't like the suburbs or what?
 
#16
the DOJ shows no one was ever murdered by fixed bayonet in the USA.
I would think that any number of the original owners of the place would likely disagree. {tongue in cheek smilie goes here}
 
#17
It's always been American policy to undermine the Mexican government and provide weapons for mexican dissident groups. Here's one example clutching the evidence, Emiliano Zapata Salazar:



It now needs to be deniable, or at least in Washington.


Oh noes, looks like MoD was supplying the Zapatista rebels in Mexico since I spy a Sten Mk II, along with an ebil janquie carbine
 
#18
sorry got confused with state and federal laws california has the most insane.
although city gun bans intrest me. how they are suppoused to help when you can buy what the hell you lik outside of the city limits I've no idea.
bad guys don't like the suburbs or what?
Ahh good question. I as a NYC resident go to Upstate NY, or Long Island and purchase a S&W M4 which is NY state compliant(no bayonet lug, No flash hider, 10 rd magazine) I've committed no crime until I bring it within the NYC limits. Once I do I am a Felon

However Mayor Bloomberg regularly sends NYPD detectives out of Jurisdiction to LI gun stores and demands the sales records to trace any city residents who made purchases. Once identified from your address, expect a visit to your home in NYC demanding said firearm be produced. If produced it is confiscated you will never see it again and can be charged arrested. Now what if I store said firearm upstate or on LI? NYPD will still hassle you, demanding proof and still trying to get you to turn it in for destruction by NYC. Now the Purchasing records are for Local, State , and Federal use but the Mayor has the time, the money the lawyers to sue legal stores in another city state, etc until they are compliant to his wishes. He sends NYPD & Private detectives to states like Mississippi, Virgina all the time to conduct surveillance and then the city sues the store owner to put him out of business.

A Friend from the Army his brother got a Job in Missouri as a Teacher and NYPD demanded he come back with his assault weapons to turn them in for destruction back in 1994. He told them to **** off, but it shows you the mindset of NYPD firearms branch.

By the way a Paintball gun, BB Gun, Airsoft gun and even deactivated guns are considered the same as possesing a Loaded Glock in NYC.
 
#19
GB, do you not have friends "down south" who can help you out. Or is your Yankee accent too strong to make that an option?
 
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