Semi serious question

Discussion in 'The NAAFI Bar' started by Hairy_Hacker, Sep 9, 2005.

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  1. Not a troll or a wah but I'm bracing for incoming...

    When I was in my understanding was this: soldiers are obviously covered by military law but so too are spouses and even visitors when on camp so I have this story and a question.

    I'm in work today and a lass I know asks me about her friend. Her friend (Miss X) was on camp in the bar when a friend of hers (Mr Y) finished a mess do and joined her. Lots of alcohol was taken on board and both of them went off in car which left camp and subsequently left the road resulting in the death of Mr Y due to Misss X being over the legal limit. My work friend asked why is it that Miss X is being court martialled? This was in Germany. I could only assume that seeing as the offense started on MOD property that this is why Miss X is being done under military law and not under Germany civvie law.

    Also a couple of others are apparently being done for allowing them off camp in this condition.

    I lay no claims to the veracity of this story but the workmate who asked is not known for being a bullshitter. I'm just curious if this a) would happen and b) would this be official/ legal policy or simply a gesture on the part of the German police.
  2. ...because Military Law applies when on and off duty, whether on MOD property or not.
  3. As a dependant, shes covered under Military Law too,and if you think its never going to happen, mate of mine, (ex MCTC) told me that once he had Mrs XYZ doing time in sunny Colchester for glassing some officer doing 2 months, she was sentenced by a military court (the deed having been done in a mess)

    As far as CIVPOL handing it over just because they are very nice people... no way Jose, supprised they are not doing nothing though...did they actually do a job on her or not?
  4. To clarify Miss X is a civvie, so seeing as the accident took place off camp can she still be done by the military?
  5. Remember that case in Germany a few years ago when an army wife ran over and killed her hubby's german grilfriend up in hohne? She was court martialled - bit of a fiasco ISTR.
  6. emptyeye:

    I only just talked about this in work so I can maybe get more details but all I know is, is that the Germans are apparently leaving it to the Army. No-one was injured other than the Brits in the car so maybe they didn't want the hassle. I'm sure like any force they have enough to do without mopping up after a couple of stupid fools who went off in a car drunk.
  7. Hiya

    You say one died, well in anyones book, that pretty serious in any country, I have known brits to die in crashes in Germany and CIVPOL to handle as expected, they will have a Liason officer available to them so language isnt an issue, pretty regular police job seems to me.
    And, they will be looking for some compensation, fire/ambulance being called out etc, that means insurance, that means a CIVPOL case file.

  8. Hacker, You say Miss X is a civvie, so I assume she is a dependant (a soldier's wife/daughter living in Germany) then in which case she will fall under military law, regardless of whether it was on camp or off. As far as the CIVPOL lack of action goes, I was recently on a course where we had a chat from an ALS bloke. The subject of jurisdiction came up and he said that in all cases, the German police will look at a case and are perfectly within their rights to hand it over to the MPs if they wish.
  9. Again emptyeye:

    I'm with you on this - curious.

    Like any story by proxy I don't know concrete details but I do find the whole thing curious.

    I've personally seen civvie police come onto camp to knick errant squaddies for behaviour down town but this is the opposite. I would have thought seeing as the car crash happened on the civvie's turf that they would have dealt with it and possibly the Army doing the culprit too.
  10. I have seen the opposite happen. The GCP turning up at the guardroom at early o'clock with a couple of toms that have been misbehaving down town. Mind you this was back when a stint in the little house on the corner was something that you really didn't want to do unless you liked bumpering ceiling etc.
  11. I cachet this in advance as I have been out of the G1 chain for a while.

    Dependants in BFG and other overseas bases are subject to military law. Status of Forces Agreements (SOFA) allow them and soldiers the protection of being covered by military law, which is similar to UK law. This is on and off camp. However, where an offence occurs off camp the local police/prosecuting authority have the option of prosecuting the case. Where the offence is brit on brit and not too serious they may well hand it over to be dealt with by the RMP/CO. Also, where the initial investigation has been carried out by RMP, then they may also allow them to continue with the case to preserve the chain of evidence/investigation. I suspect this may well be what happened in this case.

    In UK the MOD Plods have jurisdiction on MOD property, but local constabulary have an overiding authority for serious crimes. Again local agreements may be in force, especially where no MOD Plods nearby. RMP only have jurisdiction over serving military personnel. again, if someone on camp dials 999 the local coppers will come and investigate. They may hand it over to MODP or RMP or continue to investigate.

    Pragmatism rules!


  12. See S209 of the Army Act my son

    when serving overseas, dependants are subject to military law as well as domestic british law and the law of the country they are in at the time(!) The GCP are in their rights to pass the matter to RMP to investigate and deal with in the military chain. If there was a German civilian involved, they may well want to take it over for obvious reasons.
  13. This is not an unusual case at all there is a jurisdiction process branch based at jhq who, with German prosecutors decide who will take jurisdiction in many cases. If the dead woman was German then as a RTA the German Police would more than likely take it on. I dealt with a case where an officers wife killed an old German woman at zebra crossing one time. The Germans retained jurisdiction on that occasion. In cases where it is only Brit interests the jurisdiction will normally end up with the MOD and RMP will deal with the investigation. In serious cases ie Brit kills German most of the time we tend to get jurisdiction, the logic being behind the status of forces agreement is that a person serving the crown overseas when faced with a serious charge shall not be disadvantaged by the requirement to serve overseas. Take Brunei for instance, if a UK dependant, UK based civilian or squadie commits a crime which in Brunei would mean the death penalty (possession of guns and ammo for instance) then we would retain authority to deal. A minor traffic infringement would be left to the locals. See R v Martin on for an insight. This was a young son of a serving soldier who murdered a UK based civilian in JHQ. The location of the offence will not change the price of fish. Inside or outside of camp he Germans can request authority to deal but 99% of the time let the Brits deal as they know the person will face a harder punishment than under the German system.

    A good lesson in this case is don't get p1ssed and drive or face the music.

    ps what is this pish question doing in the Naafi, where's the bit about poo, dog raping or other deviant activities?

  14. My apologies but in my years service I always got the most sense in the NAAFI after a few beers.

    Would explain a lot really.