Select Committee Report - A surveillance Society

#1
On Sunday, the Commons Home Affairs Select Committee published their report in two volumes: A Surveillance Society? (volume 1) and Volume 2 Some of it has been picked up and reported on in the press but it is worth reading in the round.

Some of their recommendations may be regarded by some as naive in the extreme and I do not anticipate Government being too constrained in the application of surveillance as a result of the opinions and findings expressed therein.

Perhaps Arrsers, usually light-years ahead of most, might like to give their response to the report before the Government does. There are plenty of experts out there among the membership.
 
#2
Excellent, thanks for the link!

My attitude is "nothing to fear, nothing to hide". I interpret this to mean that, as I do not fear this government, then I am not going to hide my disapproval and the fact I want to see them kicked out at the soonest opportunity. In the meantime they can stick their ID cards in the usual place....if a few say "no thank you" then the system is unworkable.
 
#3
Two volumes? One page does the trick. :wink:
 
#4
Thank you Iolis for bringing this report to my attention. I've only had a quick glance so far and I see I'm going to have set sometime aside to give it the grim and dogged reading that this report from the deep bowels of governance properly and necessarily requires.

But I'm torn as to which should come first. You see I'm also scouring video shops looking for a film I've just heard about that has bearings on these matters of the citizens relations to the state.

It's called 'Lonely are the Brave.' Its a western, about a man on the run from the law but also on the run from central authority that wants to name, number and claim him just as it does every other citizen.
The hero, jack Burns played by Kirk Douglas feels it his inner spiritual mission to resist.

Of course it all ends in tears. No guessing whose tears. You ever see Authority cry? Got some good lines though:

"Jack Burns: A westerner likes open country. That means he's got to hate fences. And the more fences there are, the more he hates them.
It's true though. Have you ever noticed how many fences there're getting to be? And the signs they got on them: no hunting, no hiking, no admission, no trespassing, private property, closed area, start moving, go away, get lost, drop dead! Do you know what I mean?"
"I don't need [identification] cards to figure out who I am, I already know."
Obviously a metaphor, the film was made back in 1962. It seems some people knew what was coming even back then.
 

Biped

LE
Book Reviewer
#6
I'll give it a squizz tomorrow when I get some time - thanks for that Iolis.
 
#7
EthanEdwards11 said:
An open call.
Does anyone know how to select and repost on arrse a piece from a pdf file?
What, Like this?

House of Commons
Home Affairs Committee
A Surveillance Society?
Fifth Report of Session 2007–08
Volume I
Report, together with formal minutes
Ordered by The House of Commons
to be printed 20 May 2008
HC
No idea mate :)
 

Biped

LE
Book Reviewer
#8
jinxy said:
EthanEdwards11 said:
An open call.
Does anyone know how to select and repost on arrse a piece from a pdf file?
What, Like this?

House of Commons
Home Affairs Committee
A Surveillance Society?
Fifth Report of Session 2007–08
Volume I
Report, together with formal minutes
Ordered by The House of Commons
to be printed 20 May 2008
HC
No idea mate :)
Bleeding poseur!

All you do is right-click the link and 'open as HTML' - Your browser should do the rest. You can then copy and paste. Don't do this however as it's nigh on 70 pages long, and that's just the first report.
 
#9
jinxy said:
EthanEdwards11 said:
An open call.
Does anyone know how to select and repost on arrse a piece from a pdf file?
What, Like this?

House of Commons
Home Affairs Committee
A Surveillance Society?
Fifth Report of Session 2007–08
Volume I
Report, together with formal minutes
Ordered by The House of Commons
to be printed 20 May 2008
HC
No idea mate :)
Well there I have it. Declare yourself to be right mong on an arrse thread and you'll get treated like a right mong.

Why would I have imagined any different? It's frigging Army site isn't it? :D
 
#10
Page11

“Privacy plays an important role in the social contract between citizen and state: to enjoy a private life is to act on the assumption that the state trusts the citizen to behave in a law-biding and responsible way."
They are off to a bad start already. That piece above suggests that the right to privacy is already in the gift of the state and that in fact its a privilege that can be taken away.

It is the other way around. Privacy of the individual is the default position. If the state wishes, often with good lawful reason to intrude on that privacy it should be down to the state to justify that necessity.

But it is all p'issing in the wind, the total surveillance society is coming now and no one can stop it.

They also mention how the tern CCTV is a misnomer. The cameras these days aren't in a closed circuit but digital cameras linked into networks that can send the images god knows where.

New thing to worry about. Not only are we being watched but we have no idea of the identity of the watchers or where they are located.

(By the way thanks Biped but an html option doesn't appear when I right click. They have obviously removed my html privileges without my knowing for committing offenses I'm unaware off. But as I insist on signing my checks Franz Kafka it was only to be expected.)
 
#11
Biped said:
jinxy said:
EthanEdwards11 said:
An open call.
Does anyone know how to select and repost on arrse a piece from a pdf file?
What, Like this?

House of Commons
Home Affairs Committee
A Surveillance Society?
Fifth Report of Session 2007–08
Volume I
Report, together with formal minutes
Ordered by The House of Commons
to be printed 20 May 2008
HC
No idea mate :)
Bleeding poseur!

All you do is right-click the link and 'open as HTML' - Your browser should do the rest. You can then copy and paste. Don't do this however as it's nigh on 70 pages long, and that's just the first report.
You could do that or you could just open the PDF online. Then copy and paste the text you want to quote, between the quote tags. Thats all I did :)

Yes I know i'm a smart arrse.
 
#12
“Privacy plays an important role in the social contract between citizen and state: to enjoy a private life is to act on the assumption that the state trusts the citizen to behave in a law-biding and responsible way."
The social contract is like the military covenant - often quoted to make them look good, but treated with contempt and certainly not to our benefit.

That quote is particularly worrying. The relationship of trust between state and citizen should not be in the gift of the state, rather the reverse. Sometimes I think we may end up having to have to take it back.
 
#13
EthanEdwards11 said:
Page11

“Privacy plays an important role in the social contract between citizen and state: to enjoy a private life is to act on the assumption that the state trusts the citizen to behave in a law-biding and responsible way."
They are off to a bad start already. That piece above suggests that the right to privacy is already in the gift of the state and that in fact its a privilege that can be taken away.

It is the other way around. Privacy of the individual is the default position. If the state wishes, often with good lawful reason to intrude on that privacy it should be down to the state to justify that necessity.
Exactly! Good call.
All we have to do now is somehow make sure that every resident of this 'Democracy' understands their what their civil liberties actually are, and how to stop their erosion.



But it is all p'issing in the wind, the total surveillance society is coming now and no one can stop it.
Yes we can! I had a right tough 12 months banging heads with local councillors and villagers about one cctv scheme they introduced in my village. It was supplied by the Police, but run by an unnamed resident in their own home.
I argued that it was illegal under the Data Prevention Act as the Police could not grant powers of the state to civilians. This civilian had not even been positively vetted, but was in full control of a remote cctv system that could pan, tilt and zoom, and with no-one else overseeing it's use, or what happened to the recordings made from it.
It was taken down eventually..... But I hear there are now plans to have an alternative system, manned by the Police, but with THREE cameras instead of the one, despite any proof of it's effectiveness, or lack thereof....
.... The fight continues, but it's a lonely one at this time.
 
#14
“Privacy plays an important role in the social contract between citizen and state:
Pure pastel coloured mush isn't it? Tessa Joweleese spoken with the voice of Dawn Primarola.
They would have done well to read the Magna Carta before embarking on their report.

As Simon Heffer wrote today in an article on the 45 days thing said.
"I don't give a damn about the Human Rights act but I do about Habeas Corpus."

But the mushy thinking with its tone of care and concern is used deliberately to give them room for slippage from basic cast iron principle.

And they take it on trust that Tescos and Nectar's card schemes are of benefit more to the user than themselves without, at least to my reading, specifying clearly what those benefits are.

And they don't mention the parts of the retail sector, like Currys and Dixons, that are constantly asking the purchaser for the first line of their post code before pumping for everything else every time you buy a dig. camera or printer or some such.

If you query the teller they will invariably and quite falsely tell you it is in order to activate the guarantee. Don't believe them its b'olox. The receipt and the card in the box will do that.

The loyalty cards spare the big boys from having to slyly wheedle out the info at the till.

One person had told them he didn't mind the state knowing where he was but he objected to them having a right to know.

That will come next.
Then sometime after that the state will start telling the citizen where to be.
Just all a question of time.


And then of course they don't mention how the near ground surveillance may patch up with this.

http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/pro-freedom.co.uk/echelon.html

One thing I found interesting is this entity I'd never heard of before, The Royal Academy of Engineering.
Sounds ancient but has only been around for 25 years.
 
#15
MrPVRd said:
My attitude is "nothing to fear, nothing to hide".
Lemme tell you a story ......

I own a flat that I rent out. The hard left local council incorrectly sent me a bill for council tax when the tenant in the property was liable. They refused to correct the error. The dispute became quite heated. At one point the little tw@t dealing with the matter sent one of my letters back to me annotated with comments about grammar and spelling.

The matter was taken to court. The council lost.

A few months later, I was the subject of an internal council investigation. Sources that they refused to name had accused me of racism. I was threatened with legal action, even prosecution. They helpfully provided a form that I could use to confess my sins, in which case there would be 'no police involvement'. I called their bluff and heard nothing more.

Would you really be happy having people like that tapping your phone and intercepting your post & email?
 
#16
Ancient_Mariner said:
MrPVRd said:
My attitude is "nothing to fear, nothing to hide".
Would you really be happy having people like that tapping your phone and intercepting your post & email?
I for one most certainly would not. The N2FN2H argument does not - and never has - washed with me. Wait until you want to 'hide' something - no matter how innocuous it might seem (to you).

It's naiveté in the extreme to think that these control freaks in the corridors of power (whether national or local) are mostly harmless and have your best interests at heart. They don't.

YOU are there for THEIR benefit. If you'd suggested (pre-Year Zero) that you could face imprisonment for 'hate crime' for expressing an opinion not commensurate with political dogma, and that local authorities would be bugging peoples' bins and taxing their rubbish, and snooping on their children’s' school placement, and using anti-terrorism legislation for phone tapping and God knows what else, people would have thought you paranoid - and probably mad. Now who's laughing?

Remember, when the control freaks lose control, all you're left with are the freaks!
 
#17
EthanEdwards11 said:
Thank you Iolis for bringing this report to my attention. I've only had a quick glance so far and I see I'm going to have set sometime aside to give it the grim and dogged reading that this report from the deep bowels of governance properly and necessarily requires.

But I'm torn as to which should come first. You see I'm also scouring video shops looking for a film I've just heard about that has bearings on these matters of the citizens relations to the state.

It's called 'Lonely are the Brave.' Its a western, about a man on the run from the law but also on the run from central authority that wants to name, number and claim him just as it does every other citizen.
The hero, jack Burns played by Kirk Douglas feels it his inner spiritual mission to resist.

Of course it all ends in tears. No guessing whose tears. You ever see Authority cry? Got some good lines though:

"Jack Burns: A westerner likes open country. That means he's got to hate fences. And the more fences there are, the more he hates them.
It's true though. Have you ever noticed how many fences there're getting to be? And the signs they got on them: no hunting, no hiking, no admission, no trespassing, private property, closed area, start moving, go away, get lost, drop dead! Do you know what I mean?"
"I don't need [identification] cards to figure out who I am, I already know."
Obviously a metaphor, the film was made back in 1962. It seems some people knew what was coming even back then.
No need to scour video shops. You can obtain it here.
 
#18
No need to scour video shops. You can obtain it here.
Thanks for the tip Iolis.
But if my request and payment passed through American servers I might become a marked man.
Kirk Douglas's 'Lonely as the Brave' probably now enjoys Samizdat status in America and all those now wishing to view it considered suspect by agents from the Dept. of 'HOMELAND' Security.

The above, weak as it is, is a joke - I think.
 
#19
EthanEdwards11 said:
And they don't mention the parts of the retail sector, like Currys and Dixons, that are constantly asking the purchaser for the first line of their post code before pumping for everything else every time you buy a dig. camera or printer or some such
Yes, I've noticed this too. I am surprised that no-where has this practice been commented upon as a source of concern. I have stood in queues behind others and listened to others simply disclosing their postcodes on demand. It is as if half the population have become so used to imparting personal information of marketable value to anyone who claims a right to demand it. People when faced with anyone they believe exercises some form of authority, be it legal or financial, automatically believe they they are obliged to impart information of a marketable value (often under the guise of a security check).

My stock reply to intrusive questions by retailers:

"Section 2(1) Sale of Goods Act 1979 clearly states that a contract of sale of goods is a contract by which the seller transfers or agrees to transfer the property in the goods for a money consideration called the price. Unless and until Parliament amends the legal basis under which you are allowed to trade in the hight street, you may not demand anything other than the money consideration I now provide! "

Parliament enacts (no matter how imperfectly) the law in this country, not Dixons, Currys or any other retailer whose consumer contracts are governed by the 1979 Act.
 
#20
BuckFelize said:
Ancient_Mariner said:
MrPVRd said:
My attitude is "nothing to fear, nothing to hide".
Would you really be happy having people like that tapping your phone and intercepting your post & email?
I for one most certainly would not. The N2FN2H argument does not - and never has - washed with me. Wait until you want to 'hide' something - no matter how innocuous it might seem (to you).
I was misquoted slightly, although I agree entirely with the arguments expressed.

N2F - I do not fear this government
N2H - I will not hide my opposition to them

With regard to the local authority and the "internal council investigation" I suggest complaining to the relevant ombudsman and to the local police force, who I suspect may not like their name being invoked in support of a council investigation.
 

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