Secondary Weapon System - British Tactical Doctrine

#1
Now that the MOD have settled on the Glock 17 is it planned for line infantry soldiers to be armed with pistols in addition to SA80A2's?

A mate of mine is with the German Mountain Infantry and tells me that it has been their doctrine for many decades for each Gebirgjaeger to carry a sidearm in addition to his rifle. I believe that the US infantry may also follow this practice.
 
#3
If it isn't doctrine, it damned well ought to be, for all soldiers who may come into close-quarters with the enemy. If your main weapon stops firing and the enemy are really close, then drawing a side-arm is the fastest way to stay alive until you can fix the main problem. It wasn't Army doctrine in the 80's when I was in, but I never went out without one of my privately-bought pistols, as well as the main weapon (The Rifle of Note).

Pity that can't happen now. Bastards. Hasn't made any difference to the crime figures, either, has it? Bastards.
 
#4
What if their pistol jams? Should they carry a third stubby pistol down their boots?
 
#6
If it isn't doctrine, it damned well ought to be, for all soldiers who may come into close-quarters with the enemy. If your main weapon stops firing and the enemy are really close, then drawing a side-arm is the fastest way to stay alive until you can fix the main problem. It wasn't Army doctrine in the 80's when I was in, but I never went out without one of my privately-bought pistols, as well as the main weapon (The Rifle of Note).
...
Not everybody is heading off into dense jungle with likely resupply problems but it occurs to me your main weapon might have stopped firing because you carried a couple of pounds of gun rather than extra ammunition for the better bangy thing you can actually hit things with. Soldier's are loaded up with hardware these days, less might sometimes be more.
 
#8
If it isn't doctrine, it damned well ought to be, for all soldiers who may come into close-quarters with the enemy. If your main weapon stops firing and the enemy are really close, then drawing a side-arm is the fastest way to stay alive until you can fix the main problem. It wasn't Army doctrine in the 80's when I was in, but I never went out without one of my privately-bought pistols, as well as the main weapon (The Rifle of Note).

Pity that can't happen now. Bastards. Hasn't made any difference to the crime figures, either, has it? Bastards.
I assume you mean the 1880s when young blades would privately purchase one of these
images.jpeg

Seriously, I didn't realize that it was permissible to carry privately purchased weapons on operations or exercises. Of course I'm making assumptions: I assume you refer to the British Military and that you weren't attached to some type of 'Them'?

I remember a nasty bollocking (and IIRC kicking out) of a X para bloke who had a blank firing pistol on exercise in about 1983.
 
#10
I assume you mean the 1880s when young blades would privately purchase one of these
View attachment 105394

Seriously, I didn't realize that it was permissible to carry privately purchased weapons on operations or exercises. Of course I'm making assumptions: I assume you refer to the British Military and that you weren't attached to some type of 'Them'?

I remember a nasty bollocking (and IIRC kicking out) of a X para bloke who had a blank firing pistol on exercise in about 1983.
I think it would make for some interesting legal puzzles if you actually found yourself in a situation where you have to send some sod to the next world and used your own gat to do the deed.
Surely there would be some argument that ROE and orders for opening fire are only valid using issued weapons.
So what would be a legitimate enemy combatant fatality with an issued gat would be murder if committed with a privately owned one.
Genuinely interested in what the legal standpoint is with that.

Sent by carrier pigeon using Speckled Jim
 
#11
I think it would make for some interesting legal puzzles if you actually found yourself in a situation where you have to send some sod to the next world and used your own gat to do the deed.
Surely there would be some argument that ROE and orders for opening fire are only valid using issued weapons.
So what would be a legitimate enemy combatant fatality with an issued gat would be murder if committed with a privately owned one.
Genuinely interested in what the legal standpoint is with that.

Sent by carrier pigeon using Speckled Jim
The same as if you cut his throat with a knife you'd bought yourself.
 
#12
If it isn't doctrine, it damned well ought to be, for all soldiers who may come into close-quarters with the enemy. If your main weapon stops firing and the enemy are really close, then drawing a side-arm is the fastest way to stay alive until you can fix the main problem. It wasn't Army doctrine in the 80's when I was in, but I never went out without one of my privately-bought pistols, as well as the main weapon (The Rifle of Note).

Pity that can't happen now. Bastards. Hasn't made any difference to the crime figures, either, has it? Bastards.
Where were you allowed to do that?

My guess is that it was either:

a) Not British Army.

b) Not true.
 
#14
inherrent right to self defence? Regardless of weapon or who owns it. Otherwise we'd be prohibited picking up enemy gats.
 
#16
I think it would make for some interesting legal puzzles if you actually found yourself in a situation where you have to send some sod to the next world and used your own gat to do the deed.
Surely there would be some argument that ROE and orders for opening fire are only valid using issued weapons.
So what would be a legitimate enemy combatant fatality with an issued gat would be murder if committed with a privately owned one.
Genuinely interested in what the legal standpoint is with that.

Sent by carrier pigeon using Speckled Jim
An interesting point. The legal issues of transporting the weapon aside, what about ammunition? - the privately purchased weapon would have be capable of firing the issued type. Even on exercise the owner would have a problem at endex unless he hands over all his own blanks at the declaration.
 
#17
Most front line soldiers opt not to carry a pistol on Herrick tours.
As a matter of interest why is that? Just another thing to check and clean?
They can be useful for giving to journos just before you're just about to be overrun.

i.e In Helmand In 2006. Para and RIR patrol. 'Have you ever used a pistol....'
 
#18
I knew a Captain in a TA Infantry unit in Liverpool in the late 80's, early 90's who routinely carried his own privately owned pistol.

Declarations after exercises relate to ammunition etc that belongs to the army, not stuff you own privately. Otherwise "If on returning to your house you find a load of your own ammunition in your gun cupboard you must hand it to a........."
 
#19
inherrent right to self defence? Regardless of weapon or who owns it. Otherwise we'd be prohibited picking up enemy gats.
Picking up an enemy weapon would probably only done as a last resort in time of need.
Taking your own weapon to the party is premeditated.

Sent by carrier pigeon using Speckled Jim
 

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