SDSR a big fat lie?

Discussion in 'Strategic Defence & Spending Review (SDSR)' started by vvaannmmaann, Jul 20, 2012.

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  1. History is full of examples of the “big lie”, and sadly such distortions, if repeated often enough, still gain unwarranted traction today. In the defence arena it is the “£38bn black hole” that is a classic of this genre.

    The £38bn figure has no basis in fact. The National Audit Office cannot support it.

    The big lie of the defence funding 'black hole' - Telegraph
  2. If it is a big fat lie about the black hole, perhaps you could explain why when I worked on the equipment programme, helping do the sums, there was a very large black hole indeed? More to the point, this was ocurring during the last labour government, of which the Admiral was a rather enthusiastic proponent.
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  3. Grumblegrunt

    Grumblegrunt LE Book Reviewer

    I have a friend at the NAO and his boss is an ex general so I'll ask him, MOD used to be his dept but they moved him up.
  4. So explain your take on things?

    I really do not care which administration this happened under but then again I do not seek to absolve any party from responsibility either.

    According to the article the Labour hole was 2 - 3 Bn which... blossomed... to 38Bn, so who has been telling porkies and please keep the party political out of it, there.s a good chap.

  5. So, if there's no black hole, does that mean I can have a new keyboard with a reliably working n key now?
  6. "So explain your take on things? "

    Simple - the military had the problem of putting too much replacement kit into the programme at a point when operational costs were soaring, and requirements changing. This was added to the political pressure to avoid cancelling major projects to avoid embarrassment, and direction to instead delay expenditure even if it cost more.
    The end result was that we had billions of pounds of equipment in the programme and no real idea of how it was going to be afforded - everyone kept planning (hoping) for a real terms budget increase and many of the PRs were done on the magic assumption of real terms growth to save the day.
    The reality is there was no real terms growth, and we found that the sums didnt add up.
  7. Auld-Yin

    Auld-Yin LE Reviewer Book Reviewer Reviews Editor

    Of course you may; just pop down to PC World and buy one, take it back to your IT guys for checking and after about 2 weeks they will give you a completely different keyboard which may or may not have a working letter "N". Your new keyboard in the meantime will have been issued to one of their mates/managers.

    Quite simple really.
  8. Grumblegrunt

    Grumblegrunt LE Book Reviewer

    apparently they did find something rather unpalatable in the accounts but mod wouldn't admit it. as it hasn't been sorted pre recess it will come out in september.

    I don't know any more but the term unpalatable fix was used in the reply to me!

    I think they put iccys keyboard out to tender and BAE got hold of it along with a german french and uzbek conglomorate which is why it is fitted for but not with an N key but will still be the most expensive and best keyboard ever supplied to UK forces, even though it will not have stealth technology it shoudn't need it. the N key is modified upgrade to come in tranche two set for 2015 with tranche one being mostly laid up for spares or sold overseas to buyers who have no need of an N key like the chinese.
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  9. chimera

    chimera LE Moderator

    As mentioned above, when the Admiral talks about "political will and incompetence" we should all remember that he was a Minister in the last Labour Government, and a previous 1st Sea Lord. So he has a foot in both camps, and therefore I guess can be held doubly responsible for the financial mess.
  10. Part of the black hole is due to all the MOD self procurement. It rarely buys off the peg. Its crazy, and has kept countless overpaid contractors and civil servants in jobs for years. Many other armed forces have tested equipment to destruction before buying, that should be part of the negotiation remit. Try before you buy. Instead they have wazzed thousands up the wall developing it themselves, absolute madness.
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  11. How can a government be short of money in a world where they, the governments and the banks just print the ****ing stuff, they short of ink or summat?
  12. The previous government of Gordon 'Prudence' Brown and Tony 'Smiling' Blair used Tooth Fairy Finance as the basis for their financial calculations and forecasts.

    Their '2-3 billion' black hole was based upon unrealistic assumptions that only a politician can make knowing that they won't be in power when the problem bites. The NAO offered up 38 billion, not a political party.
  13. Grumblegrunt

    Grumblegrunt LE Book Reviewer

    as far as I am aware the one and only time the MOD said 'that's great but we can make it better' and it was so was when they commissioned the military grade baked bean, which is still a state secret and in regular active service. I have no idea on the development costs but more recent field trials I am told involved a certain balcony and the passing of various SF cadres, (reasons why the tins remain unmarked and you can only legally buy the airsoft version).

    recent failures - the BAE spagetti contract ran to 437m in development before being shelved in favor of pasta shapes once they worked out that it would be difficult to teach paras how to twirl the fork properly. the rat pack primula cheese failure of the 90's let to much soul searching within defense procurement the fall out of which has never left them, there was partial success as the resultant yellow rubber was found to be usefull in the manufacture of tempory cats eyes used during motorway works. this did however lead to the current fashion of fitted for but not with as 8 million ration packs were issued fitted for cheese spread but not with as they attempted to head off a repeat of the spangles crisis emergent in the 80's which decimated troop morale.
  14. Aha - you are Ed Balls and I claim my 10 pounds.

    (Which as an un-earned bonus I realise I must pay 95% tax on as soon as you get into power)
  15. They have to increase the amount of Overseas Aid, so all the new money has already gone before it's printed.