SDSR 2015 ALL Change!!!!!!!!!!!! (again) at what price? to the line Infantry??

1

1969peps

Guest
No commando gets chopped as it would take 3 Cdo Bde below its critical mass. Indeed, already it needs a third manoeuvre battalion to make it viable. If the brigade in no longer workable then what price The Royal Marines as a field formation.
Cant they just get some sailors off the big grey boats to act as commandos? your all Navy at the end of the day, not that many boats these days surly they can fill in for your manover Unit not that I am sure why you need Naval Infantry? a bit like the RAF needing some infantiers
 
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T

Tinman74

Guest
Cant they just get some sailors off the big grey boats to act as commandos? your all Navy at the end of the day, not that many boats these days surly they can fill in for your manover Unit not that I am sure why you need Naval Infantry? a bit like the RAF needing some infantiers
Or chop to the RM, 1 Rifles?
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
jim30

Clearly your a proud member of your cap badge, just wish we had more like you just what the Army need.
Jim smells of fish and therefore doesnt get a life in a regiment, that would be like a career in a single group of three boats if the navy had three boats!
 

jim30

LE
Jim smells of fish and therefore doesnt get a life in a regiment, that would be like a career in a single group of three boats if the navy had three boats!
I object to that post Ugly. I quite clearly do not smell of fish.


Any fule knows that I smell of stale wee, whiskey, and worthers originals.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
Jim in which case please accept my apologies and a free shiny grey suit from asif the tehran tailor!
Werthers indeed in my day you sucked a fishermans friend and bravely faced the consequences!
 
There was, for much of my life, no greater supporter of British Army Infantry regiments than me. When a RSM said you must be proud of your cap badge or don’t ******* wear it, that resonated with me. I knew I was but the latest of a long line of soldiers, many from my own family who had worn that badge -or one very close to it- and never flinched (at least in regimental history). It really did mean something, at least to me, although I think I might have been in a slight minority even by 1989.

Today the British Army is a bit over 80,000 and has under 300 Main Battle Tanks. Like our US allies we fought in Iraq and Afghanistan, like the US, Iraq and Afghanistan, but in the British case especially Iraq, will not go down as great military victories in UK history, although the real problems lay much more with political types and very senior officers than in your average officer or OR.

I think the time has now come to bite the bullet and go in a Corps of Infantry direction. Units have been amalgamated so often that most now represent 10 or more historical formations. A Corps of infantry would have many advantages in terms of flexibility, career structure, promotion, etc for all ranks.

I think it is sensible to keep the Royal Marines of the Royal Navy out of this. Outside of the US Marine Corps they are the only full Brigade sized Western amphibious force and are elite in both selection and training and unique in roles. Much the same applies to the British Army Parachute Regiment Battalions, no matter how seldom they actually para jump into battle. Also in terms of tempo of Operational Deployments the Royals can teach the British Army a thing or two

However most British infantry battalions should just be ‘British Infantry Battlions’. Give them numbers if you like, which is what we had before county regiments, and, if you can, keep historic names like Rifles, Fusiliers, Light Infantry, Highlanders, etc, but perhaps apply them to formations not units. If units are Scottish, Welsh or Irish add that to a number.

Same thing with the Cavalry use numbers but keep historic titles like Hussars, Lancers, Dragoon Guards and Dragoons and Royal Tank Regiment, for Formations, not units.

Now you might have to keep the Guards out of this, fine all Guards are Her Majesty’s Foot Guards, but on ops they are ‘The Guards’ and only on trooping the Colour, etc, become Grenadiers, Coldstream, Scots, Irish and Welsh Guards.

We should also, of course, keep the Gurkha Rifles as a unique unit,

Some of this is already happening in practice. I believe it is the only real way forward for the British Army…
 
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I found myself agreeing with you on this issue Jim30, so it was actually you.
 
I found myself agreeing with you on this issue Jim30, so it was actually you.
Unusually, I broadly agree with you as well on this point ID.

However, I might be tempted to suggest forming an English Guards (from the Grendiers and Coldstream) and adding them to the Scots, Welsh and Irish Regiments (each with suitably named btns as a nod to disbanded regiments), Gurkhas and (if we really have to retain a seperate Para identity rather than maintaining para capable btns in each guards regt) the Parachute Regiment. Finally, the RM should most certainly be retained in their current form.

I shall now scuttle sideways and await incoming howls of derision as to why this wouldn't work...

Regards,
MM
 
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Or chop to the RM, 1 Rifles?
1 Rifles was not moved to 3 Cdo because of undermanning per se.

If 3 Cdo X deployed en masse there would be no Cdo to cover tasks.

So 1 Rifles joined 3 Cdo to allow 40, 42 or 45 to stay at home and do Cdo stuff.

The 'odd' Cdo unit would deploy without the Bde as necessary. Hence 40 deploying with 11(?) in 2010.
 
Unusually, I broadly agree with you as well on this point ID.

However, I might be tempted to suggest forming an English Guards and adding them to the Scots, Welsh and Irish Regiments (each with suitably named btns as a nod to disbanded regiments), Gurkhas and (if we really have to retain a seperate Para identity rather than maintaining para capable btns in each guards regt) the Parachute Regiment. Finally, the RM should most certainly be retained in their current form.

I shall now scuttle sideways and await incoming howls of derision as to why this wouldn't work...

Regards,
MM
Re-brigading the bns would definitely help. An English Regiment with a PD bn (Gds), AI bn, PM Bn and light role bns.

Problem is that the Welsh can only field two bns and the Scots/Fiji 6 and a half, the Irish field 2.

And that's ignoring the expansion of the Guards. Ie Welsh include English border counties, Scots recruit as low as Preston and the Irish will take anyone.

Now factor in the long established practice of recruiting out of area, how territorial are the Regiments really? Undermanned bns have always taken volunteers, or those who can't get in to their home bn.

The regimental system has done us proud over the years but with economic and recruiting realities beginning to bite, it is time to look again.

A Gds bn in every capbadge could provide a opportunity to extend training cycles, ie a spot of armour role training in between stagging on. This would allow more usable folk to take PIDs in the other Bns.

Perhaps make the Gds home service only and use them to rehab down graded folk.
 
Lots of people slagging off the Army. Iraq and and Afghanistan mainly fell on them. Sure it was often a **** up, but our much richer allies did little better. Were British VSO up to the job? Not at all in probably most cases...

The Royal Navy and RAF are better off now than the Army far more from luck than judgement and, as has been pointed out on here, because RN and RAF weapon systems take a very long time to appear in service.
 
1

1969peps

Guest
IronDuke89

Let me try and get my head around what you put on here, so we should keep old school names such as RIFLES? sure they were formed in 2007, so been around for all of nine years now. Brilliant so to make the change you talk about we should sweep the history of the country's Infantry which has developed since 1661 putting the "Great" in Great Britain



40 Cdo Royal Marines...........................................1st Royal Marines
42 Cdo Royal Marines...........................................2nd Royal Marines
45 Cdo Royal Marines...........................................3rd Royal Marines
1 Bn Grenadier Guards.....................................1st foot Guards
1 Bn Coldstream Guards..................................2nd foot Guards
1 Bn Scots Guards............................................1st Mechanised Guards
1 Bn Irish Guards...............................................4th Foot Guards
1 Bn Welsh Guards............................................5th Foot Guards
1st Bn Royal Regiment of Scotland....................1st Regiment of Foot
2nd Bn Royal Regiment of Scotland....................2nd Regiment of foot
3rd Bn Royal Regiment of Scotland....................3rd Regiment of Foot
4th Bn Royal Regiment of Scotland....................2nd Mechanised Infantry Regiment
1st Bn Princess of Wales’s Royal Regiment......1st Armoured Infantry Regiment
2nd Bn Princess of Wales’s Royal Regiment......4th Regiment of Foot
1st Bn Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment.................5th Regiment of Foot
2nd Bn Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment.................6th Regiment of Foot
1 Bn Royal Regiment of Fusiliers......................2nd Armoured Infantry Fusiliers
1st Bn Royal Anglian Regiment............................7th Regiment of Foot
2nd Bn Royal Anglian Regiment............................8th Regiment of Foot
1st Bn Yorkshire Regiment....................................3rd Armoured Infantry Regiment
2nd Bn Yorkshire Regiment....................................9th Regiment of Foot
1st Bn Mercian Regiment.......................................4th Armoured Infantry Regiment
2nd Bn Mercian Regiment......................................10th Regiment of Foot
1st Bn Royal Welsh Regiment.............................. 5th Armoured Infantry Regiment
1st Bn Royal Irish Regiment.................................11th Regiment of Foot
1st Bn Parachute Regiment..................................1st HATS
2nd Bn Parachute Regiment..................................2nd HATS
3rd Bn Parachute Regiment...................................3rd HATS
1st Bn Royal Gurkha Rifles..................................1st Royal Gurkha Rifles
2nd Bn Royal Gurkha Rifles..................................2nd Royal Gurkha Rifles
1st Bn Rifles...........................................................1st Rifles
2nd Bn Rifles...........................................................2nd Rifles
3rd Bn Rifles............................................................3rd Rifles

4th Bn Rifles...........................................................3rd Mechanised Rifles
5th Bn Rifles...........................................................6th Armoured Infantry Rifles

Sorry ironDuke89 Paras are not getting to jump out of plains now budget cuts (proposed down scaling to 80 trained a year) so will have to become Helicoptor Assault Troops (HATs)
Also Light Infantry (LI) were swallowed in the RIFLES monster Reg was formed and Highlanders also went years ago to become Royal Scottish Regiment, unless we bring back the BUFFs etc and also current trained AI and Mech Units are not cheep to re train so might not be cost effective so just left the currently trained Units as AI and Mech Inf

Also dropped the Cdo roll as it saves a bit not having recruits do a girls course and might also sort out the sleeves up or down problem

All and all pretty much smashes the British Infantry so well done I am sure some one in Andover is contemplating it for the future

Last but not least thought the Elite RAF Regiment could take on SFSG
 
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IronDuke89

Let me try and get my head around what you put on here, so we should keep old school names such as RIFLES? sure they were formed in 2007, so been around for all of nine years now.
Depends.

'The Rifles' have been around for about 10 years but the term hasn't.

I think it started with the Kings' Royal Rifle Corps'. About 200 odd years ago.

Then you have the Royal Ulster Rifles, Cameron Rifles, etc, etc.
 
1

1969peps

Guest
Ok cheers for letting me know so not formed a few years back actually been around for hundreds of years
 
Not read preceding 14 pages but can guess most of it.

Bottom line: commitment of the infantry in a shooty war is a political gamble due to their vulnerability, and rarely will their employment be decisive, but it will be bloody. Furthermore, of all the trade groups, less probably RLC driver, the Inf is probably the easiest trade group to recruit & train
 
[QUOTE="Tired_Tech, post: 6903612, member: 131949]

The regimental system has done us proud over the years but with economic and recruiting realities beginning to bite, it is time to look again.
[/QUOTE]

The Cardwell and Haldane reforms that produced the regimental system were creatures of their strategic, political and financial times. Perhaps it is time to stop clinging to the vestigial remains?
 
Not read preceding 14 pages but can guess most of it.

Bottom line: commitment of the infantry in a shooty war is a political gamble due to their vulnerability, and rarely will their employment be decisive, but it will be bloody. Furthermore, of all the trade groups, less probably RLC driver, the Inf is probably the easiest trade group to recruit & train
to add ( i was interrupted mid flow!!) - because of the relative ease to train the inf they are naturally going to be used like a header tank of manning, and given there is unlikely to be a threat requiring significant numbers of inf, the numbers will be forced to dwindle.

It will interesting watching from the sidelines the petty squabbling over cap badges, coloured jumpers and stable belts, all whilst the para & guards remain unscathed!

If as much effort was put into maintaining capability, as regimental traditions, we've have the strongest Army in the world!
 

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