Scenario

#1
Okay here is a little Scenario of what you guys would do as RMP.

Its a Saturday night in Aldershot or wherever your posted in the UK. You and another colleague come across a pub fight outside a pub. What do you do? Do you simply ignore it and think 'Meh....they're civvies not my sh1t'. Or do you go arrest them 'assuming' ther military personnel, or do you just call up the local Civplod and get them to deal with it.

Grazie.
 
#2
As RMP have absolutely zero authority over MOPs I would imagine that unless you are certain they are Sevice Personnel you are going to be, quite literally, on a hiding should you attempt to intervene.
 
#3
Potentially the RMPs could attempt to use their "any person" powers to intervene. Since the introducton of SOCAP, this power has become more difficult to use. It would depend on factors such as the availability of an actual constable, and the "knowledge" rather than just the "suspicion" that an offence had occured.

I would offer an alternative option and that would be to consider the broad ranging powers under common law for Breach of the Peace, whereby any person can arrest to prevent a breach of the peace. A BOP has a rather flexible definition, but can be broadly defined as "harm coming to any person or any property".

Just my opinion.
 
#4
Potentially the RMPs could attempt to use their "any person" powers to intervene. Since the introducton of SOCAP, this power has become more difficult to use. It would depend on factors such as the availability of an actual constable, and the "knowledge" rather than just the "suspicion" that an offence had occured.

I would offer an alternative option and that would be to consider the broad ranging powers under common law for Breach of the Peace, whereby any person can arrest to prevent a breach of the peace. A BOP has a rather flexible definition, but can be broadly defined as "harm coming to any person or any property".

Just my opinion.
Althoug I agree it would be daft to intervene

The law regarding citizens arrest is under Section 24A of the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005.

The law states that:

Anybody can arrest a person who is committing an indictable offence;

Anybody can arrest a person if they have reasonable suspicion that they are committing an indictable offence;

Anybody can arrest a person if they reasonably suspect a person of having committed an indictable offence.

However, there are several provisions to the above. A person can only make a citizens arrest when:

It is not reasonably practical for a police constable to make the arrest; and

It is necessary because the person in question is either:

1. Causing physical injury to themselves or others;

2. Suffering physical injury;

3. Causing damage or loss of property; or

4. Escaping before a police constable can take responsibility of them.



Read more: Making a Citizen's Arrest
 
#5
I think people are looking at the wrong legislation for your incident. You could use sect 3(1) of the Criminal Law Act 1967 which provides that:
"A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large."

This would cover you if you acted reasonably, including the racking or use of batons.
 
#7
At the OP.

Whip out your fancy phone and video the scrap.

a) Use footage as evidence should it be required in any investigation.

or

b) Post it on You Tube.
 
B

Badwookie24

Guest
#9
Okay here is a little Scenario of what you guys would do as RMP.

Its a Saturday night in Aldershot or wherever your posted in the UK. You and another colleague come across a pub fight outside a pub. What do you do? Do you simply ignore it and think 'Meh....they're civvies not my sh1t'. Or do you go arrest them 'assuming' ther military personnel, or do you just call up the local Civplod and get them to deal with it.

Grazie.
I actually work in Aldershot as an RMP Sgt, and the answer is simple....we do joint patrols with the civpol and we would hand over to them if the culprit was a civi. We would deal if it was a soldier. We have the option to deal weather its a civi or a squaddie, but as soon as the id has been established there is a protocol in place to hand over if needed. If we believe a person to be a soldier, we treat them as one until they can prove different. This is fine with the Hants Police as well. Ive heard the comment....."You cant toutch me im a civi" many times as the civpol laugh at them as im slapping on handcuffs. If they are on garrison land...They are mine. (Aldershot military byelaws).
 
#11
I actually work in Aldershot as an RMP Sgt, and the answer is simple....we do joint patrols with the civpol and we would hand over to them if the culprit was a civi. We would deal if it was a soldier. We have the option to deal weather its a civi or a squaddie, but as soon as the id has been established there is a protocol in place to hand over if needed. If we believe a person to be a soldier, we treat them as one until they can prove different. This is fine with the Hants Police as well. Ive heard the comment....."You cant toutch me im a civi" many times as the civpol laugh at them as im slapping on handcuffs. If they are on garrison land...They are mine. (Aldershot military byelaws).
Why are you handcuffing civvys under a byelaw? What are you arresting them under?I think we need some caution here as we are drifting from the original scenario where there would no issues when RMP or in fact any member of the public using reasonable force under the criminal law act during a spontaneous violent incident. RMP dealing with civvies ( when civil police are there anyway!) is a car crash waiting to happen.
 
#12
I'm not interested in the OP as such, but out of interest, the civilian security who roam around Thorpe Park in addition to a stab vest with pouches various, have rigid handcuffs on display. Now these are clearly not warrant card holders, but I guess they are trained in both the use of restraint/cuffs, civil arrest powers and most importantly S3 Criminal Law Act 1967.

Presumably if someone kicks off, they can apply S3 CLA 67 and reasonably (and proportionaly) use force, including restraint until plod arrive.
 
#13
I'm not interested in the OP as such, but out of interest, the civilian security who roam around Thorpe Park in addition to a stab vest with pouches various, have rigid handcuffs on display. Now these are clearly not warrant card holders, but I guess they are trained in both the use of restraint/cuffs, civil arrest powers and most importantly S3 Criminal Law Act 1967.

Presumably if someone kicks off, they can apply S3 CLA 67 and reasonably (and proportionaly) use force, including restraint until plod arrive.
Yes if it's reasonable and proportionate until constables arrive.
 
B

Badwookie24

Guest
#14
Yes if it's reasonable and proportionate until constables arrive.
Reasonable, Proportionate and Necessary.

Common Law states.....

If you have an honestly held belief that you or another are in imminent danger, then you may use such force that is responsible and necessary to avert that danger. Furthermore a person about to be attacked does not have to wait for his/her assailant to strike the first blow or fire the first shot, circumstances may justify a pre-emptive strike.

These laws are interpreted according to the following guidelines:

a. Minimum use of force
b. Proportionality
c. Seriousness of evil to be prevented
d. Right of self defence.

All of this combined with the Conflict resolution model.....should answer any critics.
 
#15
Reasonable, Proportionate and Necessary.

Common Law states.....

If you have an honestly held belief that you or another are in imminent danger, then you may use such force that is responsible and necessary to avert that danger. Furthermore a person about to be attacked does not have to wait for his/her assailant to strike the first blow or fire the first shot, circumstances may justify a pre-emptive strike.

These laws are interpreted according to the following guidelines:

a. Minimum use of force
b. Proportionality
c. Seriousness of evil to be prevented
d. Right of self defence.

All of this combined with the Conflict resolution model.....should answer any critics.
Quite. But back to your good self. Reading the above, how are you justifying handcuffing civvys under a byelaw?
 
B

Badwookie24

Guest
#16
Quite. But back to your good self. Reading the above, how are you justifying handcuffing civvys under a byelaw?
We are allowed to do it under common law, only if they are on military land, which is most of the Aldershot Garrison. If there is an ID issue, ie, we think they may be a soldier, we can do what we like. Then if the person is ascertained to be a civi, we hand over to civpol. Can i take it you are/were RAF police having prehaps not policed a garrison?????? This is common place and is an agreement we have with Hants police. We frequently deal with civies and then hand over to civpol. Its a memorandum of understanding. Add to this we are acting within the law, COMMON LAW and PACE 24. Simple. It gets the job done and everyone is happy. NEVER had a civpol complaint yet, and doubt we ever will.

Always look at the bigger picture.
 
#17
We are allowed to do it under common law, only if they are on military land, which is most of the Aldershot Garrison.

Nonsense. You were mentioning byelaws earlier on!

If there is an ID issue, ie, we think they may be a soldier, we can do what we like.
Er...no. You must reasonably suspect they are subject to Service law. You can not just do what you like.

Then if the person is ascertained to be a civi, we hand over to civpol.
Or I suggest release them PDQ before you end up on assault and false imprisonment charges.

Can i take it you are/were RAF police having prehaps not policed a garrison??????
Mate, rest assured I know a good deal more about policing civvys and the law than you!


This is common place and is an agreement we have with Hants police. We frequently deal with civies and then hand over to civpol. Its a memorandum of understanding. Add to this we are acting within the law, COMMON LAW and PACE 24. Simple. It gets the job done and everyone is happy. NEVER had a civpol complaint yet, and doubt we ever will.

Love to take a peak at that MOU. Suffice to say it can not supercede the law. You only have the powers over civilians on a par with any other member of the public. Don't forget that.


Always look at the bigger picture.
I couldn't disagree more. Look at your own powers and responsibilities as you alone are liable for your actions.
I can not believe you are genuine RMP. Those racist jokes you cracked elsewhere on this forum are shameful.
 
#18
Er...no. You must reasonably suspect they are subject to Service law. You can not just do what you like.



Or I suggest release them PDQ before you end up on assault and false imprisonment charges.
Really-if the arrest is lawful and proportionate under the reasonable belief that the suspect is a serviceman? Are you suggesting that we then release said crim if we have observed him committing an arrestable offence, rather than summon civ plod?

I like your style-you know more about policing civvys AND the law? Really? Where did you conjure that little gem from? Barrister are you? Or just conceited?


As for the lame racist joke/RMP comment-admittedly I haven't read the comments but I have heard some shockers from serving civplod.

Get some perspective
 
B

Badwookie24

Guest
#19
Really-if the arrest is lawful and proportionate under the reasonable belief that the suspect is a serviceman? Are you suggesting that we then release said crim if we have observed him committing an arrestable offence, rather than summon civ plod?

I like your style-you know more about policing civvys AND the law? Really? Where did you conjure that little gem from? Barrister are you? Or just conceited?


As for the lame racist joke/RMP comment-admittedly I haven't read the comments but I have heard some shockers from serving civplod.

Get some perspective
Exactly.....get out on the ground in a garrison town.....Get some perspective. Racist jokes gone....admin deleted. Plenty of other sick jokes for your pleasure can be found if you want them.

Maybe a qiuck look at and understanding of PACE, and the section involving civilians. We do our job....as do Hants Police. Simple.
 
#20
Really-if the arrest is lawful and proportionate under the reasonable belief that the suspect is a serviceman? Are you suggesting that we then release said crim if we have observed him committing an arrestable offence, rather than summon civ plod?
Release him prompto if you've nicked for an arrestable offence. That term went out in 2005!


I like your style-you know more about policing civvys AND the law? Really? Where did you conjure that little gem from? Barrister are you? Or just conceited?
Why don't you read the full sentence. I said I know a good deal more about policing civvys and the law than you and was refering to the badwookie who apparently cuffs punters under a byelaw! Nice. Having said that, probably I do know more the law than you! Sorry if that sounds conceited...

As for the lame racist joke/RMP comment-admittedly I haven't read the comments but I have heard some shockers from serving civplod.
Granted, admin rightly deleted that nonsense but you didn't even read the comments before popping over here to dispense your wisdom. Quality.

Badwookie, I stand by what I say. I can not believe you are genuine RMP, especially a SNCO. Hopefully, you're some 14 year old whose cracked the AOL parental code.
 

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