Saudi Journalist Disappears in Saudi Consulate in Turkey

Turkish police have been searching the grounds of a villa belonging to a Saudi citizen near Istanbul. The owner was apparently in contact with one of the murder suspects the day before the killing.
Turkish police search luxury villa for Khashoggi's remains, state media say | CBC News
Police searched a mansion in northwestern Turkey belonging to a Saudi citizen on Monday after investigators determined that the man had been in contact with one of the suspects in the slaying of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi, Turkish officials said.

The Istanbul prosecutor's office said Mansour Othman Abbahussain — a member of a 15-person squad allegedly sent from Riyadh to kill Khashoggi — had contacted the mansion's owner, Mohammed Ahmed Alfaozan, by telephone a day before Khashoggi's Oct. 2 killing.
Police report the conversation was about disposing of the body after it was dismembered. The wording of the statement though does not imply that they have explicit discussion of this, but rather that either they had just a record of the call being made or that it was conducted using implied language.
"It is being assessed that this conversation was geared toward the disposal [or] the hiding of Jamal Khashoggi's body after its dismemberment," the prosecutor's statement read. It did not mention any possible findings at the site.
A Turkish news source said the owner of the villa was outside of Turkey at the time, and that the search centred around a well which was being pumped out for examination.
Anadolu agency, without naming a source, said the owner of the mansion was outside of Turkey at the time of the killing and had not returned in the past two months. The focus of the search was a well on the grounds of the first villa, which was being drained of water with special equipment brought to the scene, the agency reported.
 
The wording of the statement though does not imply that they have explicit discussion of this, but rather that either they had just a record of the call being made or that it was conducted using implied language.
A "statement " or yet another leak? Who knows?

According to AlJazeera the 'statement' was unambiguous: "Al Jazeera's Tony Birtley, reporting from outside one of the buildings in Yalova, said Alfaouzan had links to the Saudi crown prince.

"According to the Turkish prosecutor, a phone call was made a day before Mr Khashoggi was killed to the villa, and in that conversation details were discussed as to how to dispose of Mr Khashoggi's body," Birtley said, adding: "That's a day before, so that shows the degree of planning."

"
As none of these alleged "statements" ever appear to be published, just leaked then given widely different interpretations by the media, their veracity has to be questionable at best.

What appears rather unlikely, though, is that Turkish intelligence monitored or recorded a phone call made on a personal mobile phone from a Saudi brigadier, in the KSA, to a Saudi expat (codename 'Ghozan') who wasn't in Turkey at the time, discussing disposing of Khashoggi's body down a well on his estate in Turkey.

What seems rather more likely, as two villas / farms / estates were reportedly searched, and the 'leaks' from Turkish intelligence sources / the Turkish prosecutor's office / a local kebab seller is that the Turks have little idea what happened either in the embassy or to the body and are simply trying to keep interest going.

The 'leaks' of what's on the 'recordings' in the Consulate vary from Khashoggi being dragged out of the Consul's office and given an accidental overdose of a sedative, to his being tortured in the Consul's office and cut up alive on the Consul's office table, to his being strangled on entering the Consulate, while those on the disposal of the body vary from his being dumped down a well in the Consulate garden, dissolved in acid in the Consul's house then buried in the Consul's garden, dissolved in acid then dumped down a well in the Consul's house, dumped in a forest, flown out in parts in suitcases, and now dumped down yet another well.

The incompetence of the Saudis seems to be matched only by the imagination of the Turks.
 
A "statement " or yet another leak? Who knows?

According to AlJazeera the 'statement' was unambiguous: "Al Jazeera's Tony Birtley, reporting from outside one of the buildings in Yalova, said Alfaouzan had links to the Saudi crown prince.

"According to the Turkish prosecutor, a phone call was made a day before Mr Khashoggi was killed to the villa, and in that conversation details were discussed as to how to dispose of Mr Khashoggi's body," Birtley said, adding: "That's a day before, so that shows the degree of planning."
"
As none of these alleged "statements" ever appear to be published, just leaked then given widely different interpretations by the media, their veracity has to be questionable at best.

What appears rather unlikely, though, is that Turkish intelligence monitored or recorded a phone call made on a personal mobile phone from a Saudi brigadier, in the KSA, to a Saudi expat (codename 'Ghozan') who wasn't in Turkey at the time, discussing disposing of Khashoggi's body down a well on his estate in Turkey.

What seems rather more likely, as two villas / farms / estates were reportedly searched, and the 'leaks' from Turkish intelligence sources / the Turkish prosecutor's office / a local kebab seller is that the Turks have little idea what happened either in the embassy or to the body and are simply trying to keep interest going.

The 'leaks' of what's on the 'recordings' in the Consulate vary from Khashoggi being dragged out of the Consul's office and given an accidental overdose of a sedative, to his being tortured in the Consul's office and cut up alive on the Consul's office table, to his being strangled on entering the Consulate, while those on the disposal of the body vary from his being dumped down a well in the Consulate garden, dissolved in acid in the Consul's house then buried in the Consul's garden, dissolved in acid then dumped down a well in the Consul's house, dumped in a forest, flown out in parts in suitcases, and now dumped down yet another well.

The incompetence of the Saudis seems to be matched only by the imagination of the Turks.
The CBC quotes the Turkish prosecutor directly and that quote does not necessarily support the second hand interpretation you are putting on something you read in a (non-Turkish) news site. I will stick with the CBC's version and my interpretation of it for now.
 
The CBC quotes the Turkish prosecutor directly and that quote does not necessarily support the second hand interpretation you are putting on something you read in a (non-Turkish) news site.
????
CBC's is an AP article - that's an equally 'non-Turkish news site'!

What you're saying CBC said is, as usual, totally different to what the CBC report actually said:

' "It is being assessed that this conversation was geared toward the disposal [or] the hiding of Jamal Khashoggi's body after its dismemberment," the prosecutor's statement read. '.

That's far from the same as ' Police report the conversation was about disposing of the body after it was dismembered.' There's nothing remotely like that in the CBC report at all. Absolutely no mention of what "police report". That's pure fantasy that you've just made up!
I will stick with the CBC's version and my interpretation of it for now
Obviously you're fully entitled to stick with whatever you want, and to opine about the reports and the incident just as I or anyone else here does, but giving a link to a news report then making up a totally different version of what it says is beyond bizarre!
 
Hundreds of people protested against the visit of Prince Mohammad bin Salman to Tunis on Tuesday, where they denounced him as a murderer. Hundreds in Tunisia protest on Saudi crown prince's 1st trip since Khashoggi killing | CBC News
Hundreds of Tunisians protested on Tuesday against a visit by Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman, denouncing the kingdom's de facto ruler as a murderer in a second straight day of demonstrations condemning the killing of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi.
The protesters chanted "the murderer is not welcome in Tunisia".
They chanted "the murderer is not welcome in Tunisia" and "Shame on Tunisia's rulers" for receiving bin Salman.
Note the protester holding a pair of saws in the photo below.
 
Very interesting article on MbS in the Washington Post , drawing parallels with Saddam Hussein although I'd suggest SH was considerably more libertarian, didn't support or export terrorism, and was responsible for a lot less in the way of war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Amazing how the West chooses who it supports and who it's willing to go to war with and sacrifice a vast amount of money and a lot of lives for just so a few people can make some money.
 
What did he do to upset them? Lay claim to the Falklands
Under the Argentine Constitution they have universal jurisdiction for certain offences committed anywhere, including war crimes, as do a number of others including the UK.

It's explained in the article.
 
I am seeing this advert a lot on YouTube at the moment. KSA and motor sports - a modern state: you can drive cars really fast. And look intense with lots of sand in the background. Here's a lady dressed as night making bread. And more fast cars. No murders. No siree.

 
Reportedly Argentina's going ahead with the prosecution subject his diplomatic status. Since he 's neither a head of state nor an accredited diplomat to Argentina I don't think technically he has any diplomatic immunity, but I'm guessing he will have left before an investigation is complete.

Interesting to see who avoids a photo-op.
 
In a minor news development Canada has announced sanctions against 17 Saudi nationals.
Canada sanctions 17 Saudis linked to Khashoggi killing | CBC News
The Canadian government took its first concrete measure Thursday to protest the killing of dissident journalist Jamal Khashoggi inside Saudi Arabia's consulate in Istanbul, Turkey.
Seventeen Saudi nationals have been rendered inadmissible to Canada. If the named individuals hold any Canadian assets, those have been frozen.
These appear to be the same individuals who were named in sanctions by other western countries. This therefore appears to be part of a general coordinated western diplomatic response.
 
I am seeing this advert a lot on YouTube at the moment. KSA and motor sports - a modern state: you can drive cars really fast. And look intense with lots of sand in the background. Here's a lady dressed as night making bread. And more fast cars. No murders. No siree.

Glad to see you're on message.
 
In a minor news development Canada has announced sanctions against 17 Saudi nationals.
Canada sanctions 17 Saudis linked to Khashoggi killing | CBC News


These appear to be the same individuals who were named in sanctions by other western countries. This therefore appears to be part of a general coordinated western diplomatic response.
Well, 'yes', the same individuals already banned by the KSA from leaving the country, most of whom are already locked up in a Saudi jail and some of whom are facing execution, now can't go to Canada either ... which they must be really upset about since rather obviously they weren't able to anyway.

... but 'no', it's very clearly NOT "part of a general coordinated western diplomatic response" since some countries have had the integrity to actually do something and suspend arms sales to KSA, either completely like Germany or future sales like the Netherlands, Denmark and others rather than only pretend to do something.
 
More bad news for Saudi Arabia. Trudeau prods Saudi crown prince again on case that sparked Twitter row | CBC News

A few months ago Saudi Arabia engaged in an extraordinary over-reaction to mild criticism from Canada about some Saudi political prisoners whom Canada had an interest in due to their having close relatives in Canada.

The reason for the peculiar Saudi reaction now may have been revealed. There are reports that women political prisoners have been subjected to torture including floggings and electric shocks, and in some cases rape by guards while in prison. Some of the women are reported to be in poor shape, shaking uncontrollably, and unable to stand.
Last month, Amnesty International reported that relatives of the women had learned that they had been tortured in prison and in some cases, sexually abused while being held in a hotel by masked male guards.
Another woman was reportedly hung from a ceiling. Several were said to be in very poor condition following floggings and electric shock torture, with some shaking uncontrollably or unable to stand, and one suicide attempt.
The report says Samar Badawi is being held at Dhahban prison near Jeddah on the Red Sea coast.
Amnesty International has drawn a parallel between the murder of Khashoggi and these reports of torture of women.
"Only a few weeks after the ruthless killing of Jamal Khashoggi, these shocking reports of torture, sexual harassment and other forms of ill-treatment, if verified, expose further outrageous human rights violations by the Saudi authorities," said Amnesty's director of research for the Middle East, Lynn Malouf.
On Friday in Buenos Aires, Mohammed bin Salman was overheard in conversation with French president Macron where bin Salman told Macron to not worry, to which Macron replied "I am worried". Macron also accused bin Salman of not listening to what people were telling him.
On Friday in Buenos Aires, the prince, who is often referred to simply as "MBS," was challenged by French President Emmanuel Macron. Their exchange was caught on camera and some of the audio was also captured.

"Don't worry," an awkwardly-smiling Mohammed told Macron. "I am worried," replied the stern-faced French leader.
The news story notes that (as previously mentioned on this thread) there are rumours that members of the Saudi royal family are plotting to replace bin Salman.
The young prince is now struggling to maintain his position as foreign governments distance themselves from him and unconfirmed reports emerge from the kingdom that members of Saudi Arabia's royal family are plotting to replace him.
There was however one person in Buenos Aires who was willing to greet bin Salman warmly, and that was Vladimir Putin.
But Prince Mohammed did find one ally in Buenos Aires who not only wasn't embarrassed to be seen with him, but was positively effusive.

Russia's Vladimir Putin made a spectacle of his encounter with the prince at the first leaders' plenary session, where the two leaders sat next to each other laughing and chatting.
The news story notes that both men have something in common. Both are believed to have ordered reckless murders of their own citizens on other countries' territories.
Both men now have something in common. Many believe they ordered reckless murders of their own citizens on other countries' territory: MBS in Istanbul, and Putin with nerve gas and polonium in the U.K.
 
A ‘high five’ offered by Putin, which MbS brings in sideways.
 
This story is a follow up to one which was previously reported on this thread:
https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/saudi-journalist-disappears-in-saudi-consulate-in-turkey.286905/post-8855547
Canadian activist sues Israeli surveillance company over Jamal Khashoggi's killing | CBC News

A Saudi dissident living in Canada is suing the Israeli company who sold surveillance software to Saudi Arabia which was used to target him, and may have had something to do with the decision of the Saudis to murder Khashoggi.
A Saudi dissident living in Canada has filed a lawsuit against an Israeli surveillance company, claiming its sophisticated spyware targeted him and helped lead to the killing of his friend, Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi.
The lawsuit has been filed in Tel Aviv.
The suit, filed in a Tel Aviv court on Sunday, follows others previously filed against the company.
Omar Abdulaziz was working with Khashoggi on a new project meant to counter Saudi social media troll farms spreading Saudi propaganda.
According to the lawsuit, Omar Abdulaziz, a sharp critic on social media of the Saudi royals and a permanent resident of Canada, where he has received asylum, said he was friends with Khashoggi and worked with him on a project meant to rein in pro-monarchy Saudi trolls.
The Israeli software was used against Abdulaziz was purchased by Saudi security services and used to hack his phone and obtain information about his communications with Khashoggi.
"The spying that was directed against [Abdulaziz], and the disclosure of the content of the conversations and messages between him and Khashoggi through the system contributed significantly to the decision to assassinate Mr. Khashoggi by the assassins at the consulate," the lawsuit states, citing news reports and other sources claiming that NSO Group sold Saudi Arabia the technology in 2017 for $55 million US.
See my previous post (link above) on how University of Toronto based Citizen Lab were able to discover and track down the Saudi phone hacking.

The lawsuit seeks fairly minor monetary damages, but also seeks a court order preventing the Israeli NSO company from selling their technology to Saudi Arabia in future.
Abdulaziz is demanding 600,000 shekels — about $160,000 — in damages from the company, as well as an order preventing it from selling its technology, known as Pegasus, to Saudi Arabia.
Amnesty International are already trying to get NSO's export licenses revoked after it was used against journalists in various repressive third world countries and against one of Amnesty's own employees. This new lawsuit add's to NSO's existing problems in this regards.
NSO has been under the spotlight for months after dissidents, journalists and other opposition figures have come forward to claim the company's technology has been used by repressive governments to spy on them. These include Mexican and Qatari journalists who have already filed lawsuits against the company and an Amnesty International employee who was allegedly targeted by the software.

The new suit comes days after the human rights group said it was considering legal steps to have NSO Group's export licence revoked. It said it had made an urgent request to Israel's Defence Ministry to have the company's export licence revoked following the targeting of one of its employees. It said the request was denied.
 
Leading US senators from both parties said after a confidential CIA briefing that they are more convinced than ever that Mohammed bin Salman was involved in the murder of Khashoggi.
U.S. senators more certain than ever Saudi crown prince was behind Khashoggi killing | CBC News
"The views that I had before have only solidified," said Sen. Bob Menendez, the top Democrat on the Senate foreign relations committee, who has called for a strong U.S. reaction to Khashoggi's death and backs legislation to end all U.S. support for the Saudi coalition waging war in Yemen.
Menendez spoke to reporters as he left a closed-door briefing for some Senate leaders by CIA director Gina Haspel.

Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham, who demanded the briefing with Haspel, said there is "zero chance" the crown prince wasn't involved in Khashoggi's death.
Senator Graham said that "There's not a smoking gun. There's a smoking saw", and that "you have to be willfully blind" to believe that this was not organised and committed by people under bin Salman's command.
"There's not a smoking gun. There's a smoking saw," Graham said, referring to reports from the Turkish government that said Saudi agents used a bone saw to dismember Khashoggi after he was killed in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul.

Graham said "you have to be willfully blind" not to conclude that this was orchestrated and organized by people under the crown prince's command.
Yet another senator said that if bin Salman were put on trial, a jury would convict him in "about 30 minutes."
When asked if he thought Haspel's briefing had changed any minds, Sen. Bob Corker, the chairman of the Senate foreign relations committee, shook his head no.
Corker said he believes if the crown prince were put on trial, a jury would find him guilty in "about 30 minutes."
 
Turkey has issued an arrest warrant for two former aids to Mohammed bin Salman. These are "former royal court advisformer royal court adviser Saud al-Qahtani and former deputy intelligence chief Ahmed al-Assirier Saud al-Qahtani and former deputy intelligence chief Ahmed al-Assiri". Both are believed to have overseen the team that murdered Khashoggi.
Turkey seeks arrest of 2 former aides to Saudi crown prince in Khashoggi case | CBC News
Turkey is seeking the arrest of two former aides to Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman who were dismissed amid the fallout from the killing of Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi.

Turkey's official Anadolu news agency said a court approved arrest warrants for former royal court adviser Saud al-Qahtani and former deputy intelligence chief Ahmed al-Assiri, who are believed to have overseen the team that killed and dismembered Khashoggi at the kingdom's Istanbul consulate in October. Saudi authorities say the agents who killed Khashoggi exceeded their authority.
 
It's now increasingly clear that, despite Trump's best efforts, the US may actually do something constructive.

While the 'high five' with Putin at the G20 may have shown Russia's willingness to take up any cancelled arms sales, it also inevitably showed MbS's reliability as a western ally.
 

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