Saudi Journalist Disappears in Saudi Consulate in Turkey

Trump says not satisfied with Saudi handling of Khashoggi death | Reuters
Trump now says he’s not satisfied with the Saudi response of sacking officials:

He apparently also said MbS was possibly unaware of the circumstances surrounding the death and obviously nobody has mentioned where the journalists body is:

Germany and France (plus Spain too but not in the article), aren’t satisfied with the Saudi response. I haven’t seen anything from the U.K. yet:
Trump's all over the shop with this one. It is as if he wakes up one day and wants to reassure the Saudis, and wakes up the next wanting to reassure the Turks, EU, etc.

The FCO is probably trying to draft a statement which sounds concerned about the Kashoggi case, offers some criticism of his killing, but says nothing that will really offend Saudi Arabia...
 
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Leave it mate, he's a mentalist.
You're right, argument is pointless. I will say though that in a day and age when passwords can be stolen by decoding the audible noise of key presses on keyboards, it would take a very foolhardy intelligence person to decide that an audio recording can be successfully disguised by simply converting it from digital to analogue and back again.
 
The Crown Prince’s position remains doubtful, Erdogan it is reported not to be a supporter...but like many other countries wish to remain allied to Saudi Arabia, so he also is betwixt and between, on the horns of a dilemma...along with many countries.

Saudi has never given up its death penalties of stoning and beheading. The ‘Death of a Princess’ was a previous dilemma for the UK, and there have been others.

The fact remain that while the aspect of a death penalty remains contested globaly, it is generaly accepted globally that some form of trial precedes it. Some countries, regimes, and dictators, disagree and continue to practice extra-judicial killing, which is one mainstay of civilised society.

The degree to which they do this, perhaps how they will remain judged by the world in general.

Saudi Arabia has offered various explanations, none of them credible. Just perhaps with this latest sequence of events they are beginning to realise in this day and age of instant global communication that both they...and, the practice of aspects of an intolerant and brutal religion may be being held to account in other parts of a larger audience than just their own controlled populations.
 
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it would take a very foolhardy intelligence person to decide that an audio recording can be successfully disguised by simply converting it from digital to analogue and back again.
For the final time, that is not nor has it ever been what I suggested - as I'm sure even you know.
 
Trump's all over the shop with this one.
If you read what he actually says, rather than how it's interpreted here and by the media, I don't think he is and I'd say he's unusually consistent:
  • We need to know what happened based on the results of the enquiries (Turkish, Saudi and joint).
  • I believe the "rogue killers" story, which is why I started it.
  • As long as MbS et al stick to the"rogue killers" line then it's "credible" and we can all carry on as best friends as before (well, all except the "rogue killers").
The UK will undoubtedly follow a similar line, even if they're not so brazen about it.
 
But it was rather anecdotal situation from point of view of mr.Margelov.
Feck me chum. You need to stop taking offence so easily.

Anyone arrested or searched in the UK gets asked how they identify their ethnic origin.

It's a standard question.

Of course, when you are looking to start an argument or have some national inferiority complex it becomes some colonialist racist imperialist issue.
 
You are wrong. I have a very, very good working knowledge of the Convention. Heads of state and heads of government have de facto state immunity (hence the furore when Pinochet was detained at Heathrow). I have seen foreign ministers leaving the the UK being searched at the airport; likewise I’ve seen senior UK politicians and officials similarly treated entering other countries. As a diplomat I was routinely searched in two countries where I’ve been accredited. I didn’t cry about it.
While I agree with your conclusion, basing it only, or even mainly, on the Vienna Convention is equally wrong. A number of countries haven't signed up to the Vienna Convention, and even of those that have a number, including the US, Pakistan and Iran, haven't ratified it.

You've also overlooked that where international law has been broken there's no immunity, de facto or de jure, personal or functional - Charles Taylor's a prime example, but there's no shortage of others.

Given your previous claim that Consulates and Embassies are 'de facto sovereign territory' was also based on your experience, which is as wrong as I had been (and I was 100% wrong), and with all due apologies to @slipperman, I'd suggest that while you may have some experience in that field it's all too clearly not "a very, very good working knowledge".
 
This is quite funny
Hyprocrisy.jpg
 
The Crown Prince’s position remains doubtful, Erdogan it is reported not to be a supporter...but like many other countries wish to remain allied to Saudi Arabia, so he also is betwixt and between, on the horns of a dilemma...along with many countries.

Saudi has never given up its death penalties of stoning and beheading. The ‘Death of a Princess’ was a previous dilemma for the UK, and there have been others.

The fact remain that while the aspect of a death penalty remains contested globaly, it is generaly accepted globally that some form of trial precedes it. Some countries, regimes, and dictators, disagree and continue to practice extra-judicial killing, which is one mainstay of civilised society.

The degree to which they do this, perhaps how they will remain judged by the world in general.

Saudi Arabia has offered various explanations, none of them credible. Just perhaps with this latest sequence of events they are beginning to realise in this day and age of instant global communication that both they...and, the practice of aspects of an intolerant and brutal religion may be being held to account in other parts of a larger audience than just their own controlled populations.
Very fair, but since it's increasingly unlikely that any one apart from a few minor players who were probably only 'doing what they were told' will be "held to account" isn't there at least an equal if not greater chance that KSA and possibly others will simply have their belief confirmed that they can get away with whatever they want as long as they have money / oil / powerful friends?
 
The Times had an article in yesterday. Hard copy I’m afraid.

Basically saying when the sanctions hit Iran on the 5th. The world ( read USA) Would be up shit creek in week s if the Saudis decided to pull back oil production . Oil at $200 a barrel will screw the US and make trump look like the idiot he is.

Hence the orangutans mince words,

Also mentioned the 108 billions he mentions is Projected arms sales for the next 10years . The actual current sales are for about 10 billion but let’s not get facts between the orangutan and his voters.
 
The Times had an article in yesterday. Hard copy I’m afraid.

Basically saying when the sanctions hit Iran on the 5th. The world ( read USA) Would be up shit creek in week s if the Saudis decided to pull back oil production . Oil at $200 a barrel will screw the US and make trump look like the idiot he is.

Hence the orangutans mince words,

Also mentioned the 108 billions he mentions is Projected arms sales for the next 10years . The actual current sales are for about 10 billion but let’s not get facts between the orangutan and his voters.
Venezuela is in the middle of a melt down, and Libya hasn't recovered from their regime-change adventure. Successfully shutting off exports from Iran will take even more oil off the market and likely cause oil prices to rise. A loss of even more oil from world markets would be unwelcome.

However, Saudi Arabia needs to export oil even more than the rest of the world needs their oil. Their financial situation is not good to begin with, and they need to import the daily necessities of life, including food. The country is incapable of supporting more than a small fraction of their current population without imports. In addition, if they don't have the money to pay their foreign workforce, their whole country would grind to a halt.

Saudi Arabia are more vulnerable to sanctions being applied to them than the rest of the world is to the Saudis stopping their oil exports. Targeted sanctions much as are used against Russia are quite feasible. Limited sanctions could be implemented that affect the top Saudi regime figures such as having their foreign bank accounts frozen, or limits on foreign travel, imports of luxury items, foreign investment, sporting and cultural contacts, etc. All of these would hurt the prestige of the regime in ways which would be difficult to hide despite news censorship. I'm not recommending doing the above, but it shows which side the leverage is on.

The standard of comparison for a proportional response though appears to be what was done when several people got into a "fist fight" with some Russian cathedral enthusiasts in Salisbury. There was a large scale coordinated international expulsion of Russian diplomats from multiple countries. The same could be done with Saudi Arabia. The Saudis seem to think that the expulsion of diplomats is an effective response, as it is what they did with Canada recently when they didn't like something that was said about them with respect to human rights abuses.

We're not far enough along the road in the current situation to be doing that yet, but if the west wants to be seen to be consistent and credible rather than cynically two faced, then it's a response that needs to be under consideration.
 
Venezuela is in the middle of a melt down, and Libya hasn't recovered from their regime-change adventure. Successfully shutting off exports from Iran will take even more oil off the market and likely cause oil prices to rise. A loss of even more oil from world markets would be unwelcome.

However, Saudi Arabia needs to export oil even more than the rest of the world needs their oil. Their financial situation is not good to begin with, and they need to import the daily necessities of life, including food. The country is incapable of supporting more than a small fraction of their current population without imports. In addition, if they don't have the money to pay their foreign workforce, their whole country would grind to a halt.

Saudi Arabia are more vulnerable to sanctions being applied to them than the rest of the world is to the Saudis stopping their oil exports. Targeted sanctions much as are used against Russia are quite feasible. Limited sanctions could be implemented that affect the top Saudi regime figures such as having their foreign bank accounts frozen, or limits on foreign travel, imports of luxury items, foreign investment, sporting and cultural contacts, etc. All of these would hurt the prestige of the regime in ways which would be difficult to hide despite news censorship. I'm not recommending doing the above, but it shows which side the leverage is on.

The standard of comparison for a proportional response though appears to be what was done when several people got into a "fist fight" with some Russian cathedral enthusiasts in Salisbury. There was a large scale coordinated international expulsion of Russian diplomats from multiple countries. The same could be done with Saudi Arabia. The Saudis seem to think that the expulsion of diplomats is an effective response, as it is what they did with Canada recently when they didn't like something that was said about them with respect to human rights abuses.

We're not far enough along the road in the current situation to be doing that yet, but if the west wants to be seen to be consistent and credible rather than cynically two faced, then it's a response that needs to be under consideration.
And of course Turkey will be hit by the sanctions. It has legitimately (and also illegally) trades with its neighbour Iran for centuries; potential rivals politically and religiously, but that’s not got in the way of a healthy trade.

Further more, the Halkbank scandal in the US has Iranian connections; all very complex.
 
Saudis insist first rule of Saudi consulate Fight Club is that no one talks about Saudi consulate Fight Club

Saudis insist first rule of Saudi consulate Fight Club is that no one talks about Saudi consulate Fight Club

October 20, 2018

Written by Gary Stanton

Saudi Arabia has claimed that murdered journalist, Jamal Khashoggi, died in a legitimate, bare-knuckle fist fight with a group of like-minded men who enjoy letting off steam.

The Saudi leadership claims that the former Washington Post scribe was a fully paid-up member of the Saudi Consulate Fight Club, an organisation that was inspired by the testosterone-fuelled feature film of US actor, Brad Pitt.

However, the fifty-strong group of self-confessed hardcases claim they were prevented from disclosing the details of how Khashoggi met his bloody end due to the very strict rules governing their Fight Club, one of which includes a pledge not to talk about it.

Such is the popularity of the group, which meets on a Tuesday evening at the Saudi consulate in Turkey, that top officials regularly borrow one of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman’s private jets just to get there.

Club member, Saeed Wil-Hamsa, said, “The first rule of Saudi Consulate Fight Club is that you DO NOT talk about Saudi Consulate Fight Club, especially not to the BBC or Reuters during an ongoing murder investigation that could potentially lose you a number of lucrative defence contracts.

“This also happens to be the second rule.

“The third rule is that if someone shouts ‘Stop’, goes limp or uses their column to make unflattering remarks about Crown Prince bin Salman, sixteen of us will kick the shit out of them, quickly dismember the body and dispose of it in the boot of a conveniently located limousine.

“This is also the fourth rule.

“We do it in twos like that. Don’t ask me why! I know it’s kind of quirky, but it just evolved that way. ”

Meanwhile, Wil-Hamsa refused to provide a full list of members’ names and addresses, including a number of prominent overseas participants, claiming he was bound by the club’s fifth rule, which is also its sixth.

He added, “All I will say is this: do you really think Michael Gove achieved his perfectly-toned physique by reading despatch papers?
 
However, Saudi Arabia needs to export oil even more than the rest of the world needs their oil. Their financial situation is not good to begin with, and they need to import the daily necessities of life, including food. The country is incapable of supporting more than a small fraction of their current population without imports. In addition, if they don't have the money to pay their foreign workforce, their whole country would grind to a halt.

Saudi Arabia are more vulnerable to sanctions being applied to them than the rest of the world is to the Saudis stopping their oil exports. Targeted sanctions much as are used against Russia are quite feasible. Limited sanctions could be implemented that affect the top Saudi regime figures such as having their foreign bank accounts frozen, or limits on foreign travel, imports of luxury items, foreign investment, sporting and cultural contacts, etc. All of these would hurt the prestige of the regime in ways which would be difficult to hide despite news censorship. I'm not recommending doing the
Disagree very strongly indeed if Iran is taken out of the picture - let's put some facts on the table.

KSA is the world's second largest producer of oil, producing 13% of the world's oil, and the world's largest exporter, exporting 13.6% to China, 11.3% to Japan, 10.7% to India, 9.8% to the US, 9.1% to South Korea and 4.7% to Singapore. That's 60% of it's oil exports to only six countries, so straightaway it's clearly not a question of how much "the rest of the world needs their oil" but of how much those six countries do, just as it's not a question of how much KSA needs to sell to the rest of the world but how much it needs to sell to those six.

While those six may not have much in common politically, culturally or economically the one thing they have got in common is that, albeit for very different reasons, they all need the oil and they'd all find it difficult to find an alternative source of oil.

As for putting the KSA in financial straits, at least in the short term, they've got the world's fourth largest forex reserve and thanks to the generosity of the recent guests in the Ritz Carlton they've just added at least another 100 billion to their coffers with several more donations still to come. You can import an awful lot of food and support a lot of the population with that.

I think that shows which side the leverage is on, and who has who over a barrel if the sanctions on Iran are applied, and it isn't the EU and the UK (or Canada).
 
Saudis insist first rule of Saudi consulate Fight Club is that no one talks about Saudi consulate Fight Club

Saudis insist first rule of Saudi consulate Fight Club is that no one talks about Saudi consulate Fight Club

October 20, 2018

Written by Gary Stanton

Saudi Arabia has claimed that murdered journalist, Jamal Khashoggi, died in a legitimate, bare-knuckle fist fight with a group of like-minded men who enjoy letting off steam.

The Saudi leadership claims that the former Washington Post scribe was a fully paid-up member of the Saudi Consulate Fight Club, an organisation that was inspired by the testosterone-fuelled feature film of US actor, Brad Pitt.

However, the fifty-strong group of self-confessed hardcases claim they were prevented from disclosing the details of how Khashoggi met his bloody end due to the very strict rules governing their Fight Club, one of which includes a pledge not to talk about it.

Such is the popularity of the group, which meets on a Tuesday evening at the Saudi consulate in Turkey, that top officials regularly borrow one of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman’s private jets just to get there.

Club member, Saeed Wil-Hamsa, said, “The first rule of Saudi Consulate Fight Club is that you DO NOT talk about Saudi Consulate Fight Club, especially not to the BBC or Reuters during an ongoing murder investigation that could potentially lose you a number of lucrative defence contracts.

“This also happens to be the second rule.

“The third rule is that if someone shouts ‘Stop’, goes limp or uses their column to make unflattering remarks about Crown Prince bin Salman, sixteen of us will kick the shit out of them, quickly dismember the body and dispose of it in the boot of a conveniently located limousine.

“This is also the fourth rule.

“We do it in twos like that. Don’t ask me why! I know it’s kind of quirky, but it just evolved that way. ”

Meanwhile, Wil-Hamsa refused to provide a full list of members’ names and addresses, including a number of prominent overseas participants, claiming he was bound by the club’s fifth rule, which is also its sixth.

He added, “All I will say is this: do you really think Michael Gove achieved his perfectly-toned physique by reading despatch papers?
The Saudi excuses are so terrible, this could actually be one.
 

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