Saudi Journalist Disappears in Saudi Consulate in Turkey

Sky News has just announce that Saudi Arabia has admitted Kashoggi was killed in it’s Turkish Consulate after a fight. 18 people have been arrested in connection with his death.
Not very fair odds. Can’t have lasted too long.

The lies and multiple stories that have been offered and then changed, the support of the Crown Prince, only differs from the Russian poisoning of the Skripals in that the Saudis will have fall guys who will be blamed.

The cold fact remains that upsetting Governments is a dangerous and often fatal pastime.
 
Last edited:
That defence can be maintained. It comes at the price of not seeming credible (at all) but it can be maintained.
Depending on the evidence, such as a body being found, it could also come at the price of not being possible.

The body, and dismemberment before or after death, cause of death, etc, could easily disprove the 'fist fight' claim.

I've still got serious doubts about whether the 'tape' exists or, if it does, it will ever be heard. The security concerns aren't valid (@terminal et al were clearly talking utter nonsense about getting details of bitrates, compression, etc from an analogue re-recording) and the leaks completely contradict earlier leaked reports of not only what happened but where anything happened.
 
Respect for that, despite our differences.

It's a pity that others here who post equal or even greater nonsense, from getting digital information from analogue recordings to the Turks 'doing the right thing' and not wanting a 'whitewash' when they've done everything to prevent the full truth being known, lack your honesty and integrity.
 
Depending on the evidence, such as a body being found, it could also come at the price of not being possible.

The body, and dismemberment before or after death, cause of death, etc, could easily disprove the 'fist fight' claim.

I've still got serious doubts about whether the 'tape' exists or, if it does, it will ever be heard. The security concerns aren't valid (@terminal et al were clearly talking utter nonsense about getting details of bitrates, compression, etc from an analogue re-recording) and the leaks completely contradict earlier leaked reports of not only what happened but where anything happened.
I wonder what are the chances of the body or parts thereof bring found? The Saudis must have had a limited period of time in which to bury/toss into a lake the remains so the disposal may not be thorough.

I wouldn't describe Terminal's points as rubbish. I don't know much about I.T. but those in the room where the killing took place will know where they were. Therefore, they could use a form of direction finding, based on an analysis of the loudness of sounds and their likely distance from the microphone. In addition, if the source of the audio is a member of the KSA team, Turks could be protecting a source (getting into huge speculation here but not releasing the audio publicly may be the wisest course of action for Turkey. A private release to allies might be another matter).
It will be interesting to see what Turkey dies next. The story could easily drift if there are no fresh developments.
 
I wonder what are the chances of the body or parts thereof bring found? The Saudis must have had a limited period of time in which to bury/toss into a lake the remains so the disposal may not be thorough.
If (as is reported) he was dismembered, why was the body not taken back? If it was, they could say he was cremated, which then leads to the obvious ‘how was he transported’?

The whole Op, based on what is reported seems to be rather Keystone Cop.
————
It will be interesting to see what Turkey dies next. The story could easily drift if there are no fresh developments.
Hopefully not just yet :)

Anyway, a lot does rest on what Turkey or more correctly Erdogan does next. If ‘the tape’ exists, they may also have picked up what they were going to do with the body (dismembered or otherwise).

For arguments sake, it may be a case of quite literally “bring me his head” (see earlier comments of Dip bag contents) or a case of removing identifiable pieces and there’s a handless, headless body buried locally/sitting in a sack underwater.

If Erdogan says nothing or agrees with Trump for arguments sake, we know in which direction it’s intended to go. Then again, as Von Moltke says .....
 
If (as is reported) he was dismembered, why was the body not taken back? If it was, they could say he was cremated, which then leads to the obvious ‘how was he transported’?

The whole Op, based on what is reported seems to be rather Keystone Cop.
————

Hopefully not just yet :)

Anyway, a lot does rest on what Turkey or more correctly Erdogan does next. If ‘the tape’ exists, they may also have picked up what they were going to do with the body (dismembered or otherwise).

For arguments sake, it may be a case of quite literally “bring me his head” (see earlier comments of Dip bag contents) or a case of removing identifiable pieces and there’s a handless, headless body buried locally/sitting in a sack underwater.

If Erdogan says nothing or agrees with Trump for arguments sake, we know in which direction it’s intended to go. Then again, as Von Moltke says .....
This is a great example of the truth of his words. It's a wonder the plan survived even the planning process. Surely someone asked 'What happens if he doesn't want to come?' ?
 
This is a great example of the truth of his words. It's a wonder the plan survived even the planning process. Surely someone asked 'What happens if he doesn't want to come?' ?
I’m not sure anyone volunteers for rendition, much like crucifixion.

I’m sure there was a plan, but whether KSA follow ‘what if’s’ I’m not sure. Third hand reporting from people I know tends me to believe no, but it was a while ago.
 
I wouldn't describe Terminal's points as rubbish.
Only the point about the recording, as many of the articles he posts are well worth reading (although TBH I do find his constantly saying what an article says then quoting the article saying the exact same thing in the exact same words to be a little wierd).

I'd thought it was patently obvious that you can't get any digital information from an analogue recording or re-recording, just as it's equally obvious that a recording can easily be re-recorded to cover any of the source indicators, with those being given access to it being told that that's been done. That isn't a matter of opinion but a matter of fact, and to pretend otherwise and not admit being incorrect is not only disingenuous but discourteous to others here who might believe it and draw the wrong conclusions.

The Turks have muddied the waters from the start, as I've repeatedly pointed out, and leaking the tape but not giving it to the USA or KSA, even though it's a key part of what's supposed to be a joint (as well as parallel) enquiry is a prime example. Excusing it on supposed technical grounds which don't exist because it doesn't suit your agenda really isn't being very constructive (in my view).
 
Only the point about the recording, as many of the articles he posts are well worth reading (although TBH I do find his constantly saying what an article says then quoting the article saying the exact same thing in the exact same words to be a little wierd).

I'd thought it was patently obvious that you can't get any digital information from an analogue recording or re-recording, just as it's equally obvious that a recording can easily be re-recorded to cover any of the source indicators, with those being given access to it being told that that's been done. That isn't a matter of opinion but a matter of fact, and to pretend otherwise and not admit being incorrect is not only disingenuous but discourteous to others here who might believe it and draw the wrong conclusions.

The Turks have muddied the waters from the start, as I've repeatedly pointed out, and leaking the tape but not giving it to the USA or KSA, even though it's a key part of what's supposed to be a joint (as well as parallel) enquiry is a prime example. Excusing it on supposed technical grounds which don't exist because it doesn't suit your agenda really isn't being very constructive (in my view).
100% agreed re. the need for the recording to be released at some point. I don't know enough about the technical side of eavesdropping to be able to take a view re. your remarks; though they seem informative, I will have to see what other posters say.

Re. your other point, I am old fashioned inasmuch as I believe personal criticism of other posters is discourteous. This applies to all posters, even to those few I ignore. Play the ball not the chap, etc. I don't think you are in fact disagreeing with other posters on a personal level but you perhaps express yourself strongly [that is not intended as criticism as you are an interesting contributor :)).
 
Last edited:
As I see you failed to recall even one case of violation of the Vienna convention about diplomatic relations by Russia. While at time mr.Blair, heads of both chamers of British parliament brought apologies to senior Russian MP who was frisked by the Police in presence of the FCO representative. Btw, sir Ian Blair didn't apologise.

As for the quote from the Bible them show the beam first.
You need to grow a thicker skin.

Don't suppose you have the MP's name do you? Trust but verify and all that. ;)

To be fair, given the number of your 'diplomats' that get expelled for "activities incompatible with diplomatic status" it's not exactly a bad SOP.
 
If (as is reported) he was dismembered, why was the body not taken back? If it was, they could say he was cremated, which then leads to the obvious ‘how was he transported’?

The whole Op, based on what is reported seems to be rather Keystone Cop.
————

Hopefully not just yet :)

Anyway, a lot does rest on what Turkey or more correctly Erdogan does next. If ‘the tape’ exists, they may also have picked up what they were going to do with the body (dismembered or otherwise).

For arguments sake, it may be a case of quite literally “bring me his head” (see earlier comments of Dip bag contents) or a case of removing identifiable pieces and there’s a handless, headless body buried locally/sitting in a sack underwater.

If Erdogan says nothing or agrees with Trump for arguments sake, we know in which direction it’s intended to go. Then again, as Von Moltke says .....
Hence a number of the points I've made before, particularly about 'the tape' which tells a very different story to the one leaked initially which was supported by the known facts such as flight times and who was on the second flight - namely al-Tubaigi, the forensic expert, who was on the second flight which arrived at 17:15 by which time he was already supposed to have sliced up Khashoggi on the Consul's office desk.

Just as a reminder, the first leaked version, which matches who was known for a fact to arrive when, was that Khashoggi was dragged screaming out of the Consul's office to another room by two of the hit-team who injected him with a sedative, accidentally giving him an overdose from which he died. The second team (the clean up crew) were then called in, taking off from KSA after Khashoggi was already dead.

As I suggested before, the simplest method of rendition is simply to sedate the victim and wheel him on to a waiting private plane in a wheelchair.

As I also mentioned before, none of the fifteen had diplomatic immunity so they could have been stopped and had their bags checked (as they were) which makes taking him out in kit form unwise.
 
You need to grow a thicker skin.

Don't suppose you have the MP's name do you? Trust but verify and all that. ;)

To be fair, given the number of your 'diplomats' that get expelled for "activities incompatible with diplomatic status" it's not exactly a bad SOP.
I would like to recall a case happened with a Russian with very high diplomatic status. It happened in 2004.
Би-би-си | Россия | В Лондоне обыскали российского сенатора
Margelov Frisked by London Police | News
Russian senator Mikhail Margelov, a head of Russian Upper house commitee for foreign relations arrived to the UK according to invitation of the House of the Lords. Of course he had a diplomatic passport, belonged to top 20 Russian diplomats in the UK and he had Council of Europe ID card that provides personal immunity. He was walking being accompanied by a representative of the FCO but was detained just near DS10 and frisked by policemen that ignored his (and the FCO representative) explanation that it is a violation of diplomatic immunity and a violation of Vienna convention about diplomatic relations.
Mr.Margelov later received apologies from the House of Commons, from the House of Lords, from PM mr.Blair but ... not from Ian Blair, the head of Met.Police at time.
Vienna convetion is for diplomats. But British police has own rules.
 
100% agreed re. the need for the recording to be released at some point. I don't know enough about the technical side of eavesdropping to be able to take a view re. your remarks; though they seem informative, I will have to see what other posters say.
It's little or nothing to do with "the technical side of eavesdropping". It's simply that analogue recordings don't contain digital information - a very simple point two other posters also overlooked.
Re.your other point, I am old fashioned inasmuch as I believe personal criticism of other posters is discourteous. This applies to all posters, even to those few I ignore. Play the ball not the chap, etc.
Well, in my view a prime part of courtesy is admitting when you're wrong if shown to be beyond any doubt, as @KGB_resident did, not continuing to mislead others. We'll have to agree to disagree there.
 
Reading this (V interesting) thread, a question that springs to mind is, what was the Saudi plan re. Kashoggi? There must be easier, less conspicuous, ways to kidnap or kill someone. If it was a killing, why the ott methods and body-disposal techniques?
If it was a kidnap prior to interrogation, why at the consulate? Why conduct the interrogation on foreign soil? Particularly if torture was intended.

On reflection about the nature of govt. in KSA (but deferring to experts), I don't believe that the killing was the work of rogue elements, nor that it was part of an attempt to discredit MBS, so why the shoddy plan, execution and aftermath? I know this view does not accord with that of other posters but we're talking about the KSA, a state renowned for the degree of control it exercises. That is, what has KSA achieved?
Putting across a very strong message to any others not fully supporting the party line.

Also seeing some of the barbaric stuff done by ISIS and other groups from the same background vis a vis religion, seems this kind of killing is the norm.
 
It's little or nothing to do with "the technical side of eavesdropping". It's simply that analogue recordings don't contain digital information - a very simple point two other posters also overlooked.
Well, in my view a prime part of courtesy is admitting when you're wrong if shown to be beyond any doubt, as @KGB_resident did, not continuing to mislead others. We'll have to agree to disagree there.
All noted.
Re. the recording, if there is one, I think it would be of some use to the Saudis? (reasons in my earlier post). If those who need to know are satisfied as to what happened, why risk anything by disclosure?
 
All noted.
Re. the recording, if there is one, I think it would be of some use to the Saudis? (reasons in my earlier post). If those who need to know are satisfied as to what happened, why risk anything by disclosure?
Why not? Particularly as it contradicts what the Turks said before and known facts and timings? Why leak it instead, encouraging speculation and adding confusion?
 
.....@terminal et al were clearly talking utter nonsense about getting details of bitrates, compression, etc from an analogue re-recording).....
If the recording is digital, as the original almost certainly would be, then it is entirely possible. Indeed, it's routine.

If the digital recording was played via speaker, then re-recorded digitally, it's equally easy to do.

If the recording was digital, played via a speaker, re-recorded in an analogue format and subsequently converted to digital, a good deal of "technical intelligence" can still be gathered from it.

Why do you insist on habitually potificating on matters where your subject knowledge is so manifestly inadequate?

What leads you to insist that the original recording is analogue?
 
If (as is reported) he was dismembered, why was the body not taken back? If it was, they could say he was cremated, which then leads to the obvious ‘how was he transported’?

The whole Op, based on what is reported seems to be rather Keystone Cop.
————

Hopefully not just yet :)

Anyway, a lot does rest on what Turkey or more correctly Erdogan does next. If ‘the tape’ exists, they may also have picked up what they were going to do with the body (dismembered or otherwise).

For arguments sake, it may be a case of quite literally “bring me his head” (see earlier comments of Dip bag contents) or a case of removing identifiable pieces and there’s a handless, headless body buried locally/sitting in a sack underwater.

If Erdogan says nothing or agrees with Trump for arguments sake, we know in which direction it’s intended to go. Then again, as Von Moltke says .....
Ref the cremation theory ? WTF are you smoking.

Not knowing much about cremation but deciding this week to cremate my just deceased Mother, discussing this with the Funeral directors and reading up on it . It’s not just lighting a big BBQ and chucking the body onto it.
 
I don't know much about I.T. but those in the room where the killing took place will know where they were. Therefore, they could use a form of direction finding, based on an analysis of the loudness of sounds and their likely distance from the microphone. In addition, if the source of the audio is a member of the KSA team, Turks could be protecting a source (getting into huge speculation here but not releasing the audio publicly may be the wisest course of action for Turkey. A private release to allies might be another matter).
It will be interesting to see what Turkey dies next. The story could easily drift if there are no fresh developments.
Do you really think that while committing a murder , maybe with torture , screaming, shouting, the cutter telling the chief of the mission to stop and then hearing him being told STFU or what will happen to you if you get back to Arabia.

That those involved will remember exactly where they were?
 

Similar threads

Latest Threads

Top