Saudi Journalist Disappears in Saudi Consulate in Turkey

The steady leak of details from the Turks may be intended to put pressure on the Saudis.

For example, the Saudis say "he was fine when he left here", and the Turks leak something that makes that implausible. The Saudis counter with "it was all an accident", and the Turks leak something that pokes holes in that story.

I suspect the Turks are leaking stuff in dribs and drabs in order to avoid letting the Saudis know just how much the Turks actually know, and the Turks are holding stuff back to keep the Saudis from constructing a water tight alibi after the fact.
Thank you for the replies. I am struggling to get to grips with this case (for the reasons referred to in my posts) and appreciate the info - even the bandsaw info which, if it was used, is dreadful to contemplate tbh.
If he was interrogated, does that mean Kashoggi was thought to have opposition contacts within the Royal House (or, at least, something worth knowing that justified the risk part of the operation). I still struggle with the cock up part of the op. Not that it was cocked up, but why it was planned the way it appears to have been (even accepting that the KSA has previous form and that something went wrong in the early stages).

Apparently, Pompeo asked Turkey for the audio recording of the torture. If it is there, if will be leaked soon I would imagine.
 
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A very good article in today’s Guardian sums up pretty well the depth of the **** the Saudis are in - and how well the Turks - Erdogan - are slowly twisting the knife are not prepared to let this go And they won’t accept a papering over of the cracks.

Mike Pompeo fails to bring Jamal Khashoggi scandal under control
I think as an example of an interview or comms strategy, it has proved the value of "drip feed"

The shocking details of Khashoggi’s death have become a drip feed so vivid and visceral that Bin Salman’s denials are doing increasing damage to his global reputation.
I don't know why anyone thought Trump and his adminstration would be able to calm the waters, look at the cake and arse party they've made of their own issues.
 
I think as an example of an interview or comms strategy, it has proved the value of "drip feed"



I don't know why anyone thought Trump and his adminstration would be able to calm the waters, look at the cake and arse party they've made of their own issues.
The only party doing the right thing here seems to be Turkey, and this will be a step in the right direction to restore its international standing (and keep in closer to the Western Club).
 
This did make me chuckle

 
The most likely reason for cutting up a body would be to make it easier to transport instead of leaving it in the consulate. Ordinary butcher's tools would do the job quite effectively. I can't recall seeing a news source which said who brought the saw with them into Turkey.

The reason for using a bone/meat/butcher's saw rather than a hacksaw is that with a bone saw the teeth are wider and deeper and so are less likely to clog up than a hacksaw. Wood saws don't work well on meat either due to the shape of the teeth. You need a proper butcher's saw to cut through meat, bone, gristle, sinew, etc. effectively.
Why does your post remind me of this? Edgy.....


What a shame they are Muslims eh?
 
Given that Twitter is widely used as a means of deliberately spreading false information, I would take anything there with a very large grain of salt unless you know the source and trust him or her. Even in the latter case I would be cautious in accepting it, as the medium by its nature encourages the rapid dissemination of messages, so misinformation can get repeated by otherwise reliable sources.

The big problem with getting "news" directly from Twitter and similar sources is that you can't be an expert in every field and so can't know who is making credible statements and who is repeating rubbish. With traditional web-based newspapers the news has gone through at least some filtering by people whose business it is to know these things before it gets to you.
[THREAD DRIFT]

...a point that I've made elsewhere about Labour and Momentum's exhortations to ignore the 'traditional media which are run by right-wing billionaires' and focus instead on the 'real news' to be found on non-traditional sources.

That would include a story which was being pushed around on Facebook the other week about a woman who committed self-immolation in a benefits office 'because of the desperation caused by the evil Tories' cuts'. The story went on to state how the mainstream media aren't/weren't touching the event because of 'media lock-down' by 'The Establishment'.

Not a shred of collateral to back the story. No names, no direct witnesses, just assertion.

The 'untrustworthy' traditional media are, as you note, held to codes of practice that Agitprop-ers and the internet aren't.

[/THREAD DRIFT]



Edited to change 'forces' to 'focus'.
 
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I can't help wondering if MBS literally asked for his head and they went to fetch it. Either in a Thomas a Becket, taking the boss all too literally, way or just straight out,.
 
I can't help wondering if MBS literally asked for his head and they went to fetch it. Either in a Thomas a Becket, taking the boss all too literally, way or just straight out,.
How lucky that Trump went to the best schools and has the best words and he will clearly be aware of TS Eliot's Murder in the Cathedral

You can almost hear it being said now....

He used every means of provocation; from his conduct, step by step, there can be no inference except that he had determined upon a death by martyrdom.

This man, formerly a great public servant, had become a wrecker. Even at the last, he could have given us reason: you have seen how he evaded our questions.

And when he had deliberately exasperated us beyond human endurance, he could still have easily escaped; he could have kept himself from us long enough to allow our righteous anger to cool.

That was just what he did not wish to happen; he insisted, while we were still inflamed with wrath, that the doors should be opened. Need I say more?

The Fourth Knight
 
A very good article in today’s Guardian sums up pretty well the depth of the **** the Saudis are in - and how well the Turks - Erdogan - are slowly twisting the knife and are not prepared to let this go. And they won’t accept a papering over of the cracks.

Mike Pompeo fails to bring Jamal Khashoggi scandal under control
That news story is definitely worth reading as in my opinion it provides a very good analysis of the overall political and diplomatic situation.

The sequence of events in this bit is particularly worth taking note of. The bit about "he was cut to pieces soon after" his death will fatally undermine the excuse that it was all an accident if "soon after" means they came prepared for it.
Throughout this crisis, Turkey has not been reticent about the intelligence it holds. From the moment officials revealed their suspicions that Khashoggi had been killed, they have been consistent about the core details: the death took place in the consulate; he was cut to pieces soon after; and the whole act was recorded. Every major detail is steadily being corroborated and Saudi Arabia has yet to offer any plausible version of what happened to the prominent critic.
This bit notes that Turkey may come out of this with their regional influence greatly enhanced.
Erdoğan, a master tactician, is showing himself as a competent strategist. Using this crisis to diminish Saudi Arabia while cementing Turkey as a rising power in the Islamic world appears to be a consideration that eclipses the lucre offered by Saudi officials to make this all go away.
And this bit about bin Salman makes two important points. One is that bin Salman's international standing will be irrecoverably damaged. Another is that Saudi Arabia's propaganda machine has been putting the blame for the death on a conspiracy by Qatar and Turkey. Turkey may feel the need to hammer home the facts in order to stop the Saudis from continuing with that line.
He is in so deep that even a partial confession at this stage would represent a humiliation that could eat into his domestic base, which has mostly accepted the state line that Khashoggi’s disappearance was a conspiratorial collaboration of Qatar and Turkey - two countries aligned to the Muslim Brotherhood, which the current Saudi regime views as one of its two mortal foes.

Bin Salman’s styling of himself as an untouchable strongman would take a hit, if forced into a partial confession now. He could still probably rally his domestic base behind social and economic reforms that many in the kingdom support, but his international standing would be closer to irrecoverable.
Unrelated to the above, I recently saw a US source which said that in the US people are starting to call MBS (Mohamed bin Salman) "Mister Bone Saw". That is the sort of nickname that even the best PR firms might find hard to suppress.
 
Thank you for the replies. I am struggling to get to grips with this case (for the reasons referred to in my posts) and appreciate the info - even the bandsaw info which, if it was used, is dreadful to contemplate tbh.
If he was interrogated, does that mean Kashoggi was thought to have opposition contacts within the Royal House (or, at least, something worth knowing that justified the risk part of the operation). I still struggle with the cock up part of the op. Not that it was cocked up, but why it was planned the way it appears to have been (even accepting that the KSA has previous form and that something went wrong in the early stages).

Apparently, Pompeo asked Turkey for the audio recording of the torture. If it is there, if will be leaked soon I would imagine.
As I noted in a previous post, Saudi Arabia are conducting clandestine intelligence operations directed against people in western countries. Furthermore their use of torture should come as no surprise to anyone.

The purpose in this instance is likely to find out who Kashoggi has been in contact with both inside and outside Saudi Arabia in order to find new targets of attention. Kashoggi had an incomparable list of sources at very high levels in Saudi Arabia. Whatever persons were named by Kashoggi during the torture may themselves have already been arrested and are even now receiving the same sort of attention.
 
I suspect that in that circumstance the official US response by this time would have included at least air strikes if not something even more emphatic.
Farzad Bazoft, anyone?
 
I wonder if the Saudis filmed or recorded the whole torture, interrogation, and dismemberment themselves for later analysis and perhaps also for the entertainment of their leadership.

Various news sources are saying that they tore off Kashoggi's fingers during the torture phase. That would kind of undermine the story of it being a kidnap gone wrong. An independent autopsy of Kashoggi's remains might prove to be very instructive in many ways.
 
Farzad Bazoft, anyone?
The parallel with that case being: ‘It would be bad for our interests’: why Thatcher ignored the murder of an Observer journalist
The execution of the Observer journalist Farzad Bazoft on 15 March 1990, ordered by Saddam Hussein, provoked outrage around the world. Yet later that same day Margaret Thatcher and her government decided not to take any action, against what ministers admitted was a “ruthless” regime, for fear of jeopardising lucrative exports to Iraq.
Iraq was also seen as being useful as a bulwark against Iran, so people were willing to look the other way about a lot of things Iraq did.

One could go on about the parallels with the disastrous Iraq-Iran war and the disastrous Saudi-Yemen war, or the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait and the barely forestalled Saudi invasion of Qatar, but this is starting to get depressing.
 
I wonder if the Saudis filmed or recorded the whole torture, interrogation, and dismemberment themselves for later analysis and perhaps also for the entertainment of their leadership.

Various news sources are saying that they tore off Kashoggi's fingers during the torture phase. That would kind of undermine the story of it being a kidnap gone wrong. An independent autopsy of Kashoggi's remains might prove to be very instructive in many ways.
If so, shades of 20th July '44. These people are our allies. Pretty sickening, even if one accepts the nature of politics.
 
The only party doing the right thing here seems to be Turkey, and this will be a step in the right direction to restore its international standing (and keep in closer to the Western Club).
Saudi Arabia's propaganda machine has been putting the blame for the death on a conspiracy by Qatar and Turkey. Turkey may feel the need to hammer home the facts in order to stop the Saudis from continuing with that line.
Is it very tinfoily of me to ponder the question of who profits the most from Kashoggi's death and is therefore likely to have had some sort of hand in arranging the whole sorry episode? As far as I can gather, ME politics are an extremely murky cut-throat world with everyone playing all sorts of deception games within an almost impenetrable network of alliances and enmities. Cui bono might not be the most stupid question to ask.
 
Is it very tinfoily of me to ponder the question of who profits the most from Kashoggi's death and is therefore likely to have had some sort of hand in arranging the whole sorry episode? As far as I can gather, ME politics are an extremely murky cut-throat world with everyone playing all sorts of deception games within an almost impenetrable network of alliances and enmities. Cui bono might not be the most stupid question to ask.
I'm a little out of date on Turklish internal politics however Turkey could profit in terms of international standing and further financial assistance from Qatar and (potentially) from KSA. Erdogan is also one who enjoys turning a crisis into an opportunity but I don't even think his fingerprints (or those of Hakan Fidan, Head of TNIO/MIT) are on this.
 

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