Saudi Journalist Disappears in Saudi Consulate in Turkey

Jamal Khashoggi: Recording emerges of journalist 'torture and murder'
I'm not sure about him being a 'poor bloke' personally, that is if the reports are correct (caution, pro Erdogan source):


Meanwhile, it gets even more curious:
Story on Saudi consul in Istanbul is withdrawn | Reuters
The obvious problem is that doesn't tie in with the known, proven facts about the flight times.

The second plane with Salah al-Tubaigy reportedly on board didn't land until 5:15 (pm), four hours after Khashoggi went into the Consulate and two hours after he was supposed to have finished slicing him up.

Just a minor point of detail .....
 
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Probably a few words were inaudible
Trump says US needs Saudi Arabia as source and sponsor of terrorism in fight against terrorism
I heard "Russia needs Bashr and a warm water port in Latakia".

:)
 
Reading this (V interesting) thread, a question that springs to mind is, what was the Saudi plan re. Kashoggi? There must be easier, less conspicuous, ways to kidnap or kill someone. If it was a killing, why the ott methods and body-disposal techniques?
If it was a kidnap prior to interrogation, why at the consulate? Why conduct the interrogation on foreign soil? Particularly if torture was intended.

On reflection about the nature of govt. in KSA (but deferring to experts), I don't believe that the killing was the work of rogue elements, nor that it was part of an attempt to discredit MBS, so why the shoddy plan, execution and aftermath? I know this view does not accord with that of other posters but we're talking about the KSA, a state renowned for the degree of control it exercises. That is, what has KSA achieved?
I know I'm posting a lot here, but just in case that gives the wrong impression I must emphasise that I'm anything but an "expert" - I'm simply enjoying exercising my gray matter, looking for holes in reports, and trying to put together the least unlikely options. My previous knowledge of anyone involved was next to zero, or less.

What I find hard to understand here, hence my hypothesis, is why so many otherwise intelligent people are so incapable of putting two and two together and acting as they say they intend: Khashoggi, the Turks, the Saudis, the Americans ... how can they all be so dumb that nothing they've done makes any sense or achieves anything, even self-interest ...?
 
A witness has come forward saying that he saw Khashoggi leaving the KSA Embassy via the rear gate riding Shergar


Archie
I liked the badly photoshopped picture of him striding out of the consulate which omitted to change the DTG on the CCTV footage.

Clearly a bad reverse of him walking in, but a decent effort.
 
I know I'm posting a lot here, but just in case that gives the wrong impression I must emphasise that I'm anything but an "expert" - I'm simply enjoying exercising my gray matter, looking for holes in reports, and trying to put together the least unlikely options. My previous knowledge of anyone involved was next to zero, or less.

What I find hard to understand here, hence my hypothesis, is why so many otherwise intelligent people are so incapable of putting two and two together and acting as they say they intend: Khashoggi, the Turks, the Saudis, the Americans ... how can they all be so dumb that nothing they've done makes any sense or achieves anything, even self-interest ...?
No worries from me re. posting - it's a very interesting issue.
Fwiw, I tend towards the cock up theory; I can't see a middle or low ranking KSA Sy chap with any sense setting out to hack off Mbs. Nor can I see a senior type doing the same as the trail would be clear.
That said, I am not as suspicious as some :)

To be honest, and echoing @Archibald 's post, if someone told me it was the 'Ra with Shergar, I would at least give them a hearing...
 
I could be wrong but isn't this whole story about a willy waving contest between KSA and Turkey.
KSA commits a despicable act... Who'd have thought that possible er?
 
Iyad el-Baghdadi broke the ID of the alleged tourists on open source.

We'll see how accurate it all is.

But highly worth a follow.
 
Iyad el-Baghdadi broke the ID of the alleged tourists on open source.

We'll see how accurate it all is.

But highly worth a follow.
He'll probably be getting a visit.
 
He'll probably be getting a visit.
I do hope not.

Oh, you mean on-line.

That's fine.

Otherwise an R v Osman might be needed.

;)
 
I do hope not.

Oh, you mean on-line.

That's fine.

Otherwise an R v Osman might be needed.

;)
I hope not but the world is a wee bit less safe just now.
 
Surely a lot of caution is needed when using Twitter as a primary source? It can be reliable but one of the most interesting aspects of this case is the amount of rumour vs confirmed facts.
Edit: it can be a reliable tool, such as for direct reporting such as 'I am in Damascus, here is film of a column of tanks heading towards Aleppo' (and allows geo-location too) but some of the stuff on Twitter about this case is sensationalist and single source).
Given that Twitter is widely used as a means of deliberately spreading false information, I would take anything there with a very large grain of salt unless you know the source and trust him or her. Even in the latter case I would be cautious in accepting it, as the medium by its nature encourages the rapid dissemination of messages, so misinformation can get repeated by otherwise reliable sources.

The big problem with getting "news" directly from Twitter and similar sources is that you can't be an expert in every field and so can't know who is making credible statements and who is repeating rubbish. With traditional web-based newspapers the news has gone through at least some filtering by people whose business it is to know these things before it gets to you.
 
What's the crack with this audio / video tape?

If it's out there - why isn't it out there?

Turkey trying to find the highest bidder to determine if it broadcasts, or buries it?
 
I don't get the bone saw bit either. Dead is dead, whether tidy or messy. You can inflict pain without mess too.
The most likely reason for cutting up a body would be to make it easier to transport instead of leaving it in the consulate. Ordinary butcher's tools would do the job quite effectively. I can't recall seeing a news source which said who brought the saw with them into Turkey.

The reason for using a bone/meat/butcher's saw rather than a hacksaw is that with a bone saw the teeth are wider and deeper and so are less likely to clog up than a hacksaw. Wood saws don't work well on meat either due to the shape of the teeth. You need a proper butcher's saw to cut through meat, bone, gristle, sinew, etc. effectively.
 
Reading this (V interesting) thread, a question that springs to mind is, what was the Saudi plan re. Kashoggi? There must be easier, less conspicuous, ways to kidnap or kill someone. If it was a killing, why the ott methods and body-disposal techniques?
If it was a kidnap prior to interrogation, why at the consulate? Why conduct the interrogation on foreign soil? Particularly if torture was intended.

On reflection about the nature of govt. in KSA (but deferring to experts), I don't believe that the killing was the work of rogue elements, nor that it was part of an attempt to discredit MBS, so why the shoddy plan, execution and aftermath? I know this view does not accord with that of other posters but we're talking about the KSA, a state renowned for the degree of control it exercises. That is, what has KSA achieved?
As noted in a previous post, Saudi Arabia has been using consulates to kidnap people abroad for a while now.

As to why they did the interrogation and torture on site rather than taking Kashoggi back to Saudi Arabia in one piece and working at their leisure there, perhaps the circumstances in Turkey made that impractical.

The thing that is worth keeping in mind is that once they started torturing him in Turkey, their ability to take him out of the country alive and in one piece would start to decline rather quickly, as airport security might find bruises, burns, and missing fingernails to be a bit suspicious. If they were torturing him quite vigorously in the consulate, then the plan all along was likely to also kill him there and take the evidence out in pieces.
 
No worries from me re. posting - it's a very interesting issue.
Fwiw, I tend towards the cock up theory; I can't see a middle or low ranking KSA Sy chap with any sense setting out to hack off Mbs. Nor can I see a senior type doing the same as the trail would be clear.
That said, I am not as suspicious as some :)

To be honest, and echoing @Archibald 's post, if someone told me it was the 'Ra with Shergar, I would at least give them a hearing...
The steady leak of details from the Turks may be intended to put pressure on the Saudis.

For example, the Saudis say "he was fine when he left here", and the Turks leak something that makes that implausible. The Saudis counter with "it was all an accident", and the Turks leak something that pokes holes in that story.

I suspect the Turks are leaking stuff in dribs and drabs in order to avoid letting the Saudis know just how much the Turks actually know, and the Turks are holding stuff back to keep the Saudis from constructing a water tight alibi after the fact.
 
The most likely reason for cutting up a body would be to make it easier to transport instead of leaving it in the consulate. Ordinary butcher's tools would do the job quite effectively. I can't recall seeing a news source which said who brought the saw with them into Turkey.

The reason for using a bone/meat/butcher's saw rather than a hacksaw is that with a bone saw the teeth are wider and deeper and so are less likely to clog up than a hacksaw. Wood saws don't work well on meat either due to the shape of the teeth. You need a proper butcher's saw to cut through meat, bone, gristle, sinew, etc. effectively.
But was He killed halal?..:rolleyes:
 

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