Saudi Journalist Disappears in Saudi Consulate in Turkey

Surely a lot of caution is needed when using Twitter as a primary source? It can be reliable but one of the most interesting aspects of this case is the amount of rumour vs confirmed facts.
That's why I said that if you look at that particular Twitter feed it's quoted verbatim as an int source in the media (with the posts on Twitter being made before the media reports, so it's clear who wrote them first!).

TBH I'm a bit dubious about the whole 'bone saw' business as there's no reason to use a bone saw unless you're doing amputations, want 'operation quality' cuts, etc, all of which are totally unnecessary if you're just slicing up a body in which case a large hacksaw will do the job just as easily, possibly more quickly, certainly raise less questions at customs, and could be binned easily afterwards. Taking a saw home afterwards in your hand baggage is just one of those many things about this which make no sense at all, unless someone deliberately wanted sensational headlines.

Edit: if, as @Crash has suggested, it was found on their way out and the Turks already knew about the incident, it makes even less sense and puts the direct lie to the idea that the Turks want transparency and to know what happened, etc, since nine of the fifteen had diplomatic status / immunity.
 
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Pompeo meets Erdogan after talks with Saudis on missing journalist | Reuters
The second search still hasn't taken place yet. Yesterday's excuse was:
A search of the consul’s residence and vehicles was delayed after the consul returned to Riyadh on Tuesday.

“Yesterday (the Saudis) did not want the search to be done since the consul’s family was inside,” Cavusoglu said. “However, according to the information we received, we expect to get a permit today.”
Still nothing official from Saudi sources. Pompeo says they're committed to a full investigation:
After his meetings with the King and Crown Prince on Tuesday, Pompeo said Saudi Arabia has committed to conducting a full investigation.

“They indicated they understood that getting that done in a timely, rapid fashion so they could begin to answer important questions,” he told reporters travelling with him.

Asked whether they said Khashoggi was alive or dead, Pompeo said: “They didn’t talk about any of the facts.”
Turkey hopes to enter Saudi consul's home on Wednesday - minister | Reuters
The Turks are hoping to complete a joint search today:
“We hope the police will enter to the residence today. We have said before that Saudi Arabia must cooperate with us in every aspect without delay.”

Cavusoglu, who said the search would extend to the consul’s vehicles, said the consul was free to travel home and had not been deported.

He also said talks with Pompeo were “beneficial and fruitful”. Pompeo was on a brief visit to Turkey after having met with the Saudi king, crown prince and foreign minister in Riyadh on Tuesday.
A nine hour search on Monday. Tuesday's search cancelled. Await Wednesday's search. They're also unhappy with the Consul's behaviour which means.... wait for it ...
Turkish crime scene investigators carried out a nine-hour search of the consulate on Monday night in an investigation to look into what happened to Khashoggi, who was last seen entering the Saudi consulate on Oct. 2.

“The consul’s behaviour and approach drew reaction after Khashoggi disappeared,” Cavusoglu said - criticising the way the consul behaved in a Reuters tour of the consulate - “especially how he opened the cabinets saying ‘look he is not here’ as if mocking people, behaving disrespectfully. This was not right.”
Jamal Khashoggi: Saudi consul in Istanbul sacked and investigated over journalist disappearance
Apparently it only took seven minutes to dismember the body. Put on headsets whilst I do my work (or words to that effect):
Saudi Arabia's consul in Istanbul has been sacked and will be investigated after the disappearance of a journalist, according to Saudi media reports.

It comes as an audio recording emerged of the alleged torture and murder of missing Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi.

Sky special correspondent Alex Crawford says she was told by a "very well placed" source that a conversation between Saudi consul general Mohammed al-Otaibi and Mr Khashoggi can be heard on the recording, after which there was "a beating".

The source said the recording later reveals the journalist was "drugged" and "killed", before a Saudi forensics expert told others to put in headphones and listen to music while he took seven minutes to dismember the body.

Mr Khashoggi, a US resident and critic of the Saudi regime, has been missing since 2 October when he visited the Saudi embassy in Istanbul to obtain documents.
 
That's why I said that if you look at that particular Twitter feed it's quoted verbatim as an int source in the media (with the posts on Twitter being made before the media reports, so it's clear who wrote them first!).

TBH I'm a bit dubious about the whole 'bone saw' business as there's no reason to use a bone saw unless you're doing amputations, want 'operation quality' cuts, etc, all of which are totally unnecessary if you're just slicing up a body in which case a large hacksaw will do the job just as easily, possibly more quickly, certainly raise less questions at customs, and could be binned easily afterwards. Taking a saw home afterwards in your hand baggage is just one of those many things about this which make no sense at all, unless someone deliberately wanted sensational headlines.

Edit: if, as @Crash has suggested, it was found on their way out and the Turks already knew about the incident, it makes even less sense and puts the direct lie to the idea that the Turks want transparency and to know what happened, etc, since nine of the fifteen had diplomatic status / immunity.
I don't get the bone saw bit either. Dead is dead, whether tidy or messy. You can inflict pain without mess too.
 
Breaking news.

It was the Consul wot dun it!

According to Sky News, the Consul is being investigated over the disappearance of Mr Kashoggi.

I wouldn’t like to be in his shoes if he carries the can for it. Would they go as far as to execute him and any others they find “complicit” in this matter?
Pompeo meets Erdogan after talks with Saudis on missing journalist | Reuters
The second search still hasn't taken place yet. Yesterday's excuse was:

Still nothing official from Saudi sources. Pompeo says they're committed to a full investigation:

Turkey hopes to enter Saudi consul's home on Wednesday - minister | Reuters
The Turks are hoping to complete a joint search today:

A nine hour search on Monday. Tuesday's search cancelled. Await Wednesday's search. They're also unhappy with the Consul's behaviour which means.... wait for it ...

Jamal Khashoggi: Saudi consul in Istanbul sacked and investigated over journalist disappearance
Apparently it only took seven minutes to dismember the body. Put on headsets whilst I do my work (or words to that effect):
Well, surprise, surprise!!!

Wheel in the sacrificial lambs and sharpen up those swords :rofl:
 
Pompeo meets Erdogan after talks with Saudis on missing journalist | Reuters
The second search still hasn't taken place yet. Yesterday's excuse was:

Still nothing official from Saudi sources. Pompeo says they're committed to a full investigation:

Turkey hopes to enter Saudi consul's home on Wednesday - minister | Reuters
The Turks are hoping to complete a joint search today:

A nine hour search on Monday. Tuesday's search cancelled. Await Wednesday's search. They're also unhappy with the Consul's behaviour which means.... wait for it ...

Jamal Khashoggi: Saudi consul in Istanbul sacked and investigated over journalist disappearance
Apparently it only took seven minutes to dismember the body. Put on headsets whilst I do my work (or words to that effect):
Poor bloke. He was the chap interviewed on the BBC, looking anxious and choosing his words most carefully.
 
Poor bloke. He was the chap interviewed on the BBC, looking anxious and choosing his words most carefully.
Jamal Khashoggi: Recording emerges of journalist 'torture and murder'
I'm not sure about him being a 'poor bloke' personally, that is if the reports are correct (caution, pro Erdogan source):
Yeni Safak, a strongly pro-government newspaper, said Mr al-Otaibi could be heard telling those allegedly torturing Mr Khashoggi: "Do this outside; you're going to get me in trouble."

The newspaper said one of the Saudi "torturers" replied: "Shut up if you want to live when you return to (Saudi) Arabia."

The recording also reveals Mr Khashoggi had fingers cut off and was told to "shut up" or face being killed, Yeni Safak reported.
Meanwhile, it gets even more curious:
Story on Saudi consul in Istanbul is withdrawn | Reuters
Story headlined ‘Saudi consul in Istanbul relieved of post, to be investigated-report’ is withdrawn. The report did not appear on Sabq newspaper’s website as reported. There will be no replacement story.
 
... Mr al-Otaibi could be heard .....
The newspaper said one of the Saudi "torturers" replied: "Shut up if you want to live when you return to (Saudi) Arabia."
Maybe that's the bit that should have been in bold .....

Edit: if true, this really doesn't sound like a genuine 'hit team' or interrogation, but increasingly like a group of people chosen not just to do what they were told (or thought they were being told) but who could be easily and quickly recognised - particularly with a bit of help.

I haven't cut too many peoples' fingers off, but I really don't think threatening to kill them if they didn't "shut up" would persuade them to stop making a noise.
 
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Maybe that's the bit that should have been in bold .....
Possibly, if the newspaper is attributing that comment to al-Otaibi? The point about doing it outside is, but the point on shutting up is down to 'one of the Saudi torturers'.
 
Possibly, if the newspaper is attributing that comment to al-Otaibi? The point about doing it outside is, but the point on shutting up is down to 'one of the Saudi torturers'.
???

Umm ... according to the report, very clearly:

Consul (al-Otaibi) to torturers: "Do this outside; you're going to get me in trouble."

Torturer to Consul, in reply: "Shut up if you want to live when you return to (Saudi) Arabia."

I don't know how things work in the Signals, but in the infantry if I was in charge I wouldn't take too kindly to one of my subordinates telling me to "shut up".

The point I'm making is that, if true, that makes it pretty clear who's in charge and who wants nothing to do with what's going on.
 
???

Umm ... according to the report, very clearly:

Consul (al-Otaibi) to torturers: "Do this outside; you're going to get me in trouble."

Torturer to Consul, in reply: "Shut up if you want to live when you return to (Saudi) Arabia."

Yep, fair point.
I don't know how things work in the Signals, but in the infantry if I was in charge I wouldn't take too kindly to one of my subordinates telling me to "shut up".

In general, no. There are exceptions. Such as officers droning on about Mess stuff when there's a TIC going on
The point I'm making is that, if true, that makes it pretty clear who's in charge and who wants nothing to do with what's going on.
Yep, agreed.
 
And resume normal jogging.

 
Reading this (V interesting) thread, a question that springs to mind is, what was the Saudi plan re. Kashoggi? There must be easier, less conspicuous, ways to kidnap or kill someone. If it was a killing, why the ott methods and body-disposal techniques?
If it was a kidnap prior to interrogation, why at the consulate? Why conduct the interrogation on foreign soil? Particularly if torture was intended.

On reflection about the nature of govt. in KSA (but deferring to experts), I don't believe that the killing was the work of rogue elements, nor that it was part of an attempt to discredit MBS, so why the shoddy plan, execution and aftermath? I know this view does not accord with that of other posters but we're talking about the KSA, a state renowned for the degree of control it exercises. That is, what has KSA achieved?
 
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The CG and the 15 goons will be put on a show trial and branded ‘rogue elements’ then all will be found guilty avd have an interview with a sword after Friday Prayers.

All loose ends tied up and flushed away, Salman whitewashed.
 
Surely a lot of caution is needed when using Twitter as a primary source? It can be reliable but one of the most interesting aspects of this case is the amount of rumour vs confirmed facts.
Edit: it can be a reliable tool, such as for direct reporting such as 'I am in Damascus, here is film of a column of tanks heading towards Aleppo' (and allows geo-location too) but some of the stuff on Twitter about this case is sensationalist and single source).
Same caution as you'd use with anything, adding on that the ME has a reputation for hyperbole, lies, dissimulation and downright mentalism that makes reading the tea leaves difficult.

Twitter has many SMEs and I go there for many things, tech, Belingcat and Brexit news from experts.
 
And resume normal jogging.

Probably a few words were inaudible
Trump says US needs Saudi Arabia as source and sponsor of terrorism in fight against terrorism
 
Same caution as you'd use with anything, adding on that the ME has a reputation for hyperbole, lies, dissimulation and downright mentalism that makes reading the tea leaves difficult.

Twitter has many SMEs and I go there for many things, tech, Belingcat and Brexit news from experts.
True, Bellingcat, Oryx, etc. Who is reliable however when something like this happens and new experts spring up with quotes, stories and rumours?
Of course, Twitter is useful precisely for that - govts issuing deniable tit bits. The Turks are showing KSA their hand informally and seeing what happens. I wonder when/if they will go publicly, err, public.
 
True, Bellingcat, Oryx, etc. Who is reliable however when something like this happens and new experts spring up with quotes, stories and rumours?
Of course, Twitter is useful precisely for that - govts issuing deniable tit bits. The Turks are showing KSA their hand informally and seeing what happens. I wonder when/if they will go publicly, err, public.
The one player whose game I can't understand at all is the Turk's. Why say that you already knew about the killing while the killers were still in the country but that you let them go and did nothing about it, as the Turks appear to have done, then say that you want the full story to come out?
 
Probably a few words were inaudible
Trump says US needs Saudi Arabia as source and sponsor of terrorism in fight against terrorism
Nope, what he actually said was "Sergei tells the biggest fibs in the world, he's fake."

Gen dit.
 

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