Saudi Air Force officer goes postal in Pensacola

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Deleted 24582

Guest
Then let's sincerely hope that KSA don't advise that they have immunity and spirit the "filmers" home in the dead of night. That wouldn't be appropriate would it? Would you consider the famies have recieved justice if that were the case?

If not, you can get an appreciation for the depth of feeling here.

I live very close to RAF Fairford. Locals have been very vocal on this subject and visiting aircrew are in no doubt about how the vast majority regard this outcome. Comments to a party of B-52 crew like 'I would drink that in your left hand, that way you can remember which side we drive on' delivered deadpan by the Landlord give you a flavour.

Whether she left on instruction or of her own volition matters not a jot. It is the knowledge that this could happen to anyone of the local residents with zero repurcussions under the law for the perpetrator should the US so insist.

Relations with the base are currently rather frosty and that is how you will see the reaction manifest here in the UK.
Then one might consider telling the locals that if they wish to prevent future tragedies, isolating the Americans is not going to help one bit. Living in a foreign country can be difficult enough, but dealing with hostile natives does set a tone that is not good. The less the Americans mix with your folks, the more strained and undesirable the posting can be.

If we use the precident where one incident determines public opinion, then you folks would be viewed as dangerous nut jobs who endanger military personal when you decide to let yourselves on military installations and threaten the very safety of all folks on it
 
Then one might consider telling the locals that if they wish to prevent future tragedies, isolating the Americans is not going to help one bit. Living in a foreign country can be difficult enough, but dealing with hostile natives does set a tone that is not good. The less the Americans mix with your folks, the more strained and undesirable the posting can be.

If we use the precident where one incident determines public opinion, then you folks would be viewed as dangerous nut jobs who endanger military personal when you decide to let yourselves on military installations and threaten the very safety of all folks on it
It isn't just one incident. For as long as I have been aware of it (around forty years or so, living near US airbases in UK though I am now in NL) any serious incident involving US personnel locally in UK has been dealt with 'internally' ie. they have been posted. Mostly these were driving incidents or alchohol related. On the one hand local businesses want your money, but on the other hand the troops/airman etc. live under a different set of laws and that causes long-term resentment.
 

StormsInAfrica

Old-Salt
Then one might consider telling the locals that if they wish to prevent future tragedies, isolating the Americans is not going to help one bit. Living in a foreign country can be difficult enough, but dealing with hostile natives does set a tone that is not good. The less the Americans mix with your folks, the more strained and undesirable the posting can be.

If we use the precident where one incident determines public opinion, then you folks would be viewed as dangerous nut jobs who endanger military personal when you decide to let yourselves on military installations and threaten the very safety of all folks on it
Honestly, I think the reaction is perfectly understandable.

Woman kills young lad - evades justice facilitated by USG - family left without any recourse - UK opinion of US deteriorates.

If those people are flown back to KSA you will not have a moral leg to stand on.

After all, diplomatic considerations trump legal ones and the bereaved families are just going to have to wear it. Right?
 
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Deleted 24582

Guest
It isn't just one incident. For as long as I have been aware of it (around forty years or so, living near US airbases in UK though I am now in NL) any serious incident involving US personnel locally in UK has been dealt with 'internally' ie. they have been posted. Mostly these were driving incidents or alchohol related. On the one hand local businesses want your money, but on the other hand the troops/airman etc. live under a different set of laws and that causes long-term resentment.
Yes I am sure their are dustups and small events that do happen. It was the same thing when I was in high school here, and brawling with the young Airmen who were stationed here. I know the feeling from both sides.

But conversely one has to ask would the UK be better served if the American military presence were removed?? Would the US be better for it either? My personal thoughts are no, neither country would benefit.
 

StormsInAfrica

Old-Salt
It isn't just one incident. For as long as I have been aware of it (around forty years or so, living near US airbases in UK though I am now in NL) any serious incident involving US personnel locally in UK has been dealt with 'internally' ie. they have been posted. Mostly these were driving incidents or alchohol related. On the one hand local businesses want your money, but on the other hand the troops/airman etc. live under a different set of laws and that causes long-term resentment.
Same here. Personnel involved in bar scraps are out on the next C-5 or civair if more expedient.
 
D

Deleted 24582

Guest
Honestly, I think the reaction is perfectly understandable.

Woman kills young lad - evades justice facilitated by USG - family left without any recourse - UK opinion of US deteriorates.

If those people are flown back to KSA you will not have a moral leg to stand on.

After all, diplomatic considerations trump legal ones and the bereaved families are just going to have to wear it. Right?
Minus the fact the House of Saud has sharper methods to deal with those that put the country in a bad light. Ironically they would be safer in America.

I understand the low opinion, but punishing the masses for the actions of one does not bode well either. The mob mentality is dangerous.
 

StormsInAfrica

Old-Salt
Yes I am sure their are dustups and small events that do happen. It was the same thing when I was in high school here, and brawling with the young Airmen who were stationed here. I know the feeling from both sides.

But conversely one has to ask would the UK be better served if the American military presence were removed?? Would the US be better for it either? My personal thoughts are no, neither country would benefit.
We'd be better served if standards of behaviour were enforced by investigation and proper recourse to justice like any other human being.
 
D

Deleted 24582

Guest
We'd be better served if standards of behaviour were enforced by investigation and proper recourse to justice like any other human being.
But this case is an outlier, and I would be more worried about why the US government does not trust her to be in your custody.

Some of us septics view the U.K. as person at a fork in the road. Take the wrong path and that “Special relationship” will die. Much will depend on next week.
 

StormsInAfrica

Old-Salt
But this case is an outlier, and I would be more worried about why the US government does not trust her to be in your custody.

Some of us septics view the U.K. as person at a fork in the road. Take the wrong path and that “Special relationship” will die. Much will depend on next week.
It is an outlier in terms of its seriousness, not unfortunately in its isolation.

If you are alluding to Corbyn potentially getting in then I couldn't agree more.

I also agree that next week will affect the nature of our relationships should there be an, ahem, "unfavourable outcome".

People here don't want the moon on a stick vis this. Simply for her to return, be investigated and stand trial if charged. If the outcome is a 'no case to answer' or 'not guilty' then that is the right and proper outcome; justice will have been done.
 
D

Deleted 24582

Guest
It is an outlier in terms of its seriousness, not unfortunately in its isolation.

If you are alluding to Corbyn potentially getting in then I couldn't agree more.

I also agree that next week will affect the nature of our relationships should there be an, ahem, "unfavourable outcome".

People here don't want the moon on a stick vis this. Simply for her to return, be investigated and stand trial if charged. If the outcome is a 'no case to answer' or 'not guilty' then that is the right and proper outcome; justice will have been done.
Yes your GE will determine quite a bit. Sadly if JC wins many are not inclined to believe your civil servants, who are claiming it will be business as usual.
 

StormsInAfrica

Old-Salt
At the risk of thread creep, it won't be BaU.

Once they have their hands on the levers of power things will be very, very different and the CS (of which I am a part) are bound to implement the instructions of the elected government.

That the elected government could potentially be a cabal of dogmatic hard Leftists backed by a rump of anti-Semites shames this country deeply.
 
But this case is an outlier, and I would be more worried about why the US government does not trust her to be in your custody.

Some of us septics view the U.K. as person at a fork in the road. Take the wrong path and that “Special relationship” will die. Much will depend on next week.
No it won't depend on next week. And nor will we be dictated to by Neocons or Trumpists in DC. There have been more radical governments in Westminster in the past; that's our own business. US attempts of isolationism in the past have not ended well...

I think in Europe - indeed any countries that have defence treaties with the US - will be questioning how reliable POTUS is and whether these pacts have been worth the effort. His (and shall I be charitable?) erratic, mercurial behaviour, is jaw-droppingly damaging to your country's prestige and security.
 
D

Deleted 24582

Guest
No it won't depend on next week. And nor will we be dictated to by Neocons or Trumpists in DC. There have been more radical governments in Westminster in the past; that's our own business. US attempts of isolationism in the past have not ended well...

I think in Europe - indeed any countries that have defence treaties with the US - will be questioning how reliable POTUS is and whether these pacts have been worth the effort. His (and shall I be charitable?) erratic, mercurial behaviour, is jaw-droppingly damaging to your country's prestige and security.
You might find the new relationship would make the Johnson-Wilson years seem rather cordial. JC is a particularly unpleasant sort, and it would be our business.

Or maybe Europe just does not like being called out for being “Cheap”. This is not a new sentiment amongst us Muricans, but something that has been slowly building. Whilst we might be iffy in your eyes, take a look at it from my perspective.
 
You might find the new relationship would make the Johnson-Wilson years seem rather cordial. JC is a particularly unpleasant sort, and it would be our business.

Or maybe Europe just does not like being called out for being “Cheap”. This is not a new sentiment amongst us Muricans, but something that has been slowly building. Whilst we might be iffy in your eyes, take a look at it from my perspective.
Well, with what you have currently infesting 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, you should be a good judge of politicians of 'a particularly unpleasant sort'.
 
D

Deleted 24582

Guest
Well, with what you have currently infesting 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, you should be a good judge of politicians of 'a particularly unpleasant sort'.
You do speak a truth, but he is our heathen. JC hates us more than HRC and has a been a life long Anti American. Are you sure you couldn’t drag Tony out of retirement?
 
Are you sure you couldn’t drag Tony out of retirement?
Bliar's making far too much money as a public speaker and 'adviser' to belittle himself to go back to a job he's already done.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
But this case is an outlier, and I would be more worried about why the US government does not trust her to be in your custody.

Some of us septics view the U.K. as person at a fork in the road. Take the wrong path and that “Special relationship” will die. Much will depend on next week.
It’s been said before when labour govts have refused to play ball the US way! The relationship didn’t end it just had a different temperament for a few years. After Suez in 56 you were lucky us and the French both didn’t ask you to behave or leave
 
You might find the new relationship would make the Johnson-Wilson years seem rather cordial. JC is a particularly unpleasant sort, and it would be our business.

Or maybe Europe just does not like being called out for being “Cheap”. This is not a new sentiment amongst us Muricans, but something that has been slowly building. Whilst we might be iffy in your eyes, take a look at it from my perspective.
Western and Southern Europe has got along for over 70 years without fighting - the longest period of peace probably since the 1300s. Some of this is due to the presence of US within NATO and some of it is the intertwined cultures and economies; much of it is about the horrors of the last century. Defence is simply not seen in the same light as it is in the US, UK or Australia. France is the exception, having a more demanding colonial legacy that Britain; they dont mind having the odd fight - outside of Europe.

Anyway JC is unlikely to be Prime Minister.
 
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D

Deleted 24582

Guest
It’s been said before when labour govts have refused to play ball the US way! The relationship didn’t end it just had a different temperament for a few years. After Suez in 56 you were lucky us and the French both didn’t ask you to behave or leave
Somehow I think things have shifted in America when it comes to foreign relations.

One would think the financial implications of pissing America off, would be something you folks are all to familiar with.
 

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