SASR "Execute" unarmed Afghan

'Savvy'... Stoop to their Level ... How quaint .

No, what I'm actually saying is fight to win , not be restricted by stupid convention that see us lose Soldiers and battles to keep some Col Blimp happy at home .... yes, YOU.
The communist insurgency in Malaya was beaten by playing by the rules. Torture ('third degree') was all but unknown and punished severely when it did occur.
 
How the hell can you "play fair" against savages ?

The mental torture that our forces must go through fighting people who are peacefull farmers one minute, then bombers the next...... I just can't comprehend the torture they go through......
On whose behalf were "we" fighting, and why were we there?
 
On whose behalf were "we" fighting, and why were we there?

TBH, none of that really matters to the bods on the ground taking casualties ...and nor should it.

If people felt like that they shouldn't have joined , and for those who do, you must be some kind of dumb feck to think that you won't get sent into something that is a load of bolloxs by civvy or any other standards .

You join the gang, you take the rough with the smooth and do what you're paid to do .

It's not a difficult concept to understand.
 
"the genesis of the inquiry had been SAS soldiers writing letters to the top brass about misconduct, forcing General Campbell to call for inquiries to "examine our soul because it wasn’t right"

Which tends to suggest that people in the proper chain of command failed. There's half of the problem.
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
The communist insurgency in Malaya was beaten by playing by the rules. Torture ('third degree') was all but unknown and punished severely when it did occur.
The communist insurgency was beaten using a load of resources that took years to put in place (local Special Branch mainly) and that we don't have access to when we go to play in places like Afghanistan and Iraq. Further, in Malaya, the army was viewed as a bit of a blunt instrument and all the major breakthroughs were made by the police with a couple of lucky ambushes. The likelihood of getting killed for no purpose was a particular persuader for CTs to give up.

Bottom line, we need to go back to the days when , if you're out of uniform, you're out of luck. Hearts and minds is a load of bollocks and a waste of effort if the bad guys get to shoot the audience with impunity if they're losing the argument.

That said, I'm arguing for the CoC (and the politicians) to grow a pair. I don't agree with units going off the reservation and making their own ROEs up.
 
TBH, none of that really matters to the bods on the ground taking casualties ...and nor should it.

If people felt like that they shouldn't have joined , and for those who do, you must be some kind of dumb feck to think that you won't get sent into something that is a load of bolloxs by civvy or any other standards .

You join the gang, you take the rough with the smooth and do what you're paid to do .

It's not a difficult concept to understand.
The point is, if they're all savages and there's no way to control them other than through fear, what are you trying to achieve by being there in the first place? How do you achieve victory such that you can leave, or did you plan on staying there forever?
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
The point is, if they're all savages and there's no way to control them other than through fear, what are you trying to achieve by being there in the first place? How do you achieve victory such that you can leave, or did you plan on staying there forever?
I suppose one response to that might be 'keeping them as far from your borders as possible whilst impressing upon them that coming anywhere near your home would be to invite an inordinate reaction'.

Not a very PC response but a valid one.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
The communist insurgency was beaten using a load of resources that took years to put in place (local Special Branch mainly) and that we don't have access to when we go to play in places like Afghanistan and Iraq. Further, in Malaya, the army was viewed as a bit of a blunt instrument and all the major breakthroughs were made by the police with a couple of lucky ambushes. The likelihood of getting killed for no purpose was a particular persuader for CTs to give up.

Bottom line, we need to go back to the days when , if you're out of uniform, you're out of luck. Hearts and minds is a load of bollocks and a waste of effort if the bad guys get to shoot the audience with impunity if they're losing the argument.

That said, I'm arguing for the CoC (and the politicians) to grow a pair. I don't agree with units going off the reservation and making their own ROEs up.
Not having access to resources is in part because we want quick fixes.

The Malayan Emergency lasted 12 years. The Dhofar Rebellion lasted 14. Operation BANNER lasted just short of 38. We were going into Afghanistan and expecting not a shot to be fired, remember?

Unless there's a realistic appreciation of what's needed, we doom ourselves to embroilment. One wry observation about the 'low-key' operations in Dhofar was that the SAS used half of the UK's NATO battle stocks of small arms ammunition.

Some things take years and resources to 'fix'. That may not be popular but it's a perennial truth.
 
Only when they were dead. The photo of the Matine holding a head was a primitive photo shop and published (I think) in the Morning Star
Only when they're dead?

Is chopping off ears ok 'if they're already dead'?

Primitive photo shop?

It was routine practice to chop heads off.

Local headhunters weren't a recruitment agency.
 
The point is, if they're all savages and there's no way to control them other than through fear, what are you trying to achieve by being there in the first place? How do you achieve victory such that you can leave, or did you plan on staying there forever?
A question which never seems to be asked of politicians.

Although grandstanding would be the honest answer.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Only when they're dead?

Is chopping off ears ok 'if they're already dead'?

Primitive photo shop?

It was routine practice to chop heads off.

Local headhunters weren't a recruitment agency.
The head thing was an identification thing. It wasn't gratuitous.

The picture of the Royal Marine referred to was purportedly of a Bootie grinning while holding two heads. The original was of the same man holding a very large, dead snake.

Ears? War crime. Right? No. Did it happen? Yes. Is it uncomfortable? Yes. Did everyone do it? No. Does that make it better? No.

Different times and different people.
 
The head thing was an identification thing. It wasn't gratuitous.

The picture of the Royal Marine referred to was purportedly of a Bootie grinning while holding two heads. The original was of the same man holding a very large, dead snake.

Ears? War crime. Right? No. Did it happen? Yes. Is it uncomfortable? Yes. Did everyone do it? No. Does that make it better? No.

Different times and different people.
Apparently chopping off heads wasn't a war crime, as war hadn't been declared.

But apart from that, absolutely winning by playing by the rules
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
Not having access to resources is in part because we want quick fixes.

The Malayan Emergency lasted 12 years. The Dhofar Rebellion lasted 14. Operation BANNER lasted just short of 38. We were going into Afghanistan and expecting not a shot to be fired, remember?

Unless there's a realistic appreciation of what's needed, we doom ourselves to embroilment. One wry observation about the 'low-key' operations in Dhofar was that the SAS used half of the UK's NATO battle stocks of small arms ammunition.

Some things take years and resources to 'fix'. That may not be popular but it's a perennial truth.
Having worked extensively with NATO formations, I'd be surprised if it was only half...
 
Unless there's a realistic appreciation of what's needed, we doom ourselves to embroilment.
Said far too many times to be repeated, but a 'war' extends far beyond the military participation. Yer Roman knew that, and yer Norman. Sad, really, that yer politico don't.
 
Only when they were dead. The photo of the Matine holding a head was a primitive photo shop and published (I think) in the Morning Star
I think it was real, but the two heads been taken from dead terrorists as a means of identifying them, rather than humping the whole bodies out of the jungle.
 
Not having access to resources is in part because we want quick fixes.

The Malayan Emergency lasted 12 years. The Dhofar Rebellion lasted 14. Operation BANNER lasted just short of 38. We were going into Afghanistan and expecting not a shot to be fired, remember?

Unless there's a realistic appreciation of what's needed, we doom ourselves to embroilment. One wry observation about the 'low-key' operations in Dhofar was that the SAS used half of the UK's NATO battle stocks of small arms ammunition.

Some things take years and resources to 'fix'. That may not be popular but it's a perennial truth.
The Malayan Emergency, Dhofar Rebellion, Operation BANNER were all in support of functioning governments. The UK were in control of the overall operation and could set the goals and the means.

The Afghanistan-US war was and is a US led operation that overthrew the existing government and tried to set up a completely new government in its place. The Americans went into the war no clear objectives other than to gain revenge for a terrorist attack. Everything after that was just an after the fact fig leaf for finding a way to leave without losing face.

Other countries were only there as a way of supporting the US in order to keep the NATO alliance together or for other diplomatic reasons unrelated to Afghanistan itself. Nobody else had or has any direct interest in what happens in Afghanistan.

So you have two completely different scenarios. In the one case the military are providing security assistance to a civil power, and the civil power are the ones who need to create a political solution to resolve the conflict, with the advice and assistance of the military power as required.

In the second case what could have been a simple punitive expedition turned into a project to create and mould a new state from the ground up for the benefit of a largely unwilling populace, an utterly futile project if there ever was one.
 

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